Talk:Ha'tak
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[edit] Anubis' mothership
Was this realy a new Ha'tak ship, Anubis was half Ancient this ship was more then likely an Ancient/Goa'uld hybred and should be noted as one
Perhaps, but you never see any Non-Goa'uld technology being used aboard the vessel. The Superweapon is a Goa'uld weapon of ancient design, powered by Goa'uld technology (Specifically the various Eyes) and you never really see anything else. Though it's possible that it was an Ancient/Goa'uld hybrid, we'd need some evidence before declaring it as such.
[edit] Ship Size
I see new data on the size of the standard Ha'tak class (Length, height, etc.) and am curious as to the origin of these figures. I'm not contesting the accuracy, I'm merely curious as to where this info came from since I have no recollection of the show ever stating any specific measurements.
Okay, since it's been God-knows-how-long and I've yet receive any response, I'm removing the size specifications from the article. As I said earlier, I'm not flat out saying that they're wrong, but I know of absolutely no source where the information could have been gleaned from. I might be wrong, and if I am please tell me, but it seems like pure fan speculation.
Oh, just in case somebody points out the sourse, here's the data as it was:
Size: 775m wide, 317m tall, and weight 23.4 million metric tons.
[edit] Did Osiris have a new class of Ha'tak?
I was just watching the episode The Curse and, at the end, Osiris flees Earth in a ship that she had hidden beneath the desert of Egypt. Though pyramidal in shape, it is clearly not one of the previously seen classes of Goa'uld mothership. When leaving the Earth it had this weird pointy thing coming out of the bottom, and there were other noticeable differences. However, you only see it for five seconds and never again, so it's true abilities and purpose are a mystery. Is it another Ha'tak class, or something else (Since merely being a pyramid doesn't make it a Ha'tak).
It's been a while since I watched that episode, but from what I remember, it may have been an Alkesh.
Nope, definitely not an Al'kesh (That I would have recognized). It was pyramidal and, after she boarded and began to leave the Earth, had some weird pointy thing coming out of the back.
I just rewatched the episode, and you're right it definitely wasn't an Al'kesh. That said, it did appear to be about the same size, and was far too small to be a Ha'tak.
Seeing as how she was stuck in stasis for over 3000 years, I'm guessing it's like an ancient varient of the Ha'tal
[edit] Less Powerful than an O'Neill Class Battleship
It is stated that Anubis's upgraded Ha'taks are less powerful than the Asgard O'Neill class. From the one episode where they confront each other though, it is impossible to say either way. All we actually know is that one Ha'tak wasn't willing to attempt engaging three O'Neills. All that really tells us is that Osiris wasn't convinced the new Ha'taks were much more powerful than the O'Neills.
Uh...what? When did Osiris ever face any O'Neill's? Come to think of it, when did any Ha'tak face off against three O'Neill's?
It was in the fifth season finally of SG1. Two of the upgraded ships had taken on the Beliskner and Anubis had capture Thor as a result. Osiris was in command of the remaining Ha'tak (the other had gone of to face Yu) when three O'Niells showed up at the end of the episode. She elected to let the cargo ship with SG1, Thor and Heimdal go rather than risk engaging the new Asgard ships at three to one odds.
I remember the episode in question (Just after Daniel's Ascension and the first appearance of Anubis), but wasn't she confronted with three Beliskner cruisers, rather than three O'Neills? However, I've only seen the episode once, so I could be mistaken.
Oh, and random tidbit, it was originally three Ha'tak's that destroyed Thor's ship, two of them left to engage Yu (Leaving, as mentioned, the third to confront the three Asgard ships). 67.85.165.48 21:16, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
They were O'Neill's. Freyr stated on his arrival that the ships were more advanced than the one the Goa'uld's destroyed (Belisker) Thinktank
I do vaguely remember that comment (As I said, it was only once and a long time ago), but that doesn't necessarily mean they were O'Neill's. It's never been stated that the Asgard had no other ships besides the Beliskner class, and they could simply have been newer models than the ship Thor was using. However, until I actually see the episode again (And see what was actually said) I'll concede the point. 67.85.165.48 04:48, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
It's certainly possible they were actually something else newer besides an O'Neill, but that seems as good a guess as any for now. As for the number of Ha'taks that took out the Beliskner class ship, I'm fairly certain it was only two. I've been rewatching the series and should get to that episode in a few days, so it'll be settled for certain then.
Again, I haven't seen it in a while, so I'll concede that point, too. I'll check the next time it's on. 67.85.165.48 02:57, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I just watched the episode yesterday, and the battle did only involve two Ha'Taks. A third shows up later in the episode to deliver Anubis, but it departs with Osiris's second ship to engage lord Yu. As for the O'Neill issue, the ships looked the same as the ship from Small Victories. They are certainly as correctly categorized as such as the Beliskners that have been seen and referenced in articles.
Well, I guess that answers that. JBK405 16:39, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Landing
"Though anything pyramidal in shape will do"
Strange, as ha'taks are triangular based pyramids, and most Earth pyramids are Square Based. I would like to see a Ha'tak try and land at Giza. Thoughts? --Ross 16:26, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
We have seen them land at Giza. Well, we actually haven't seen them doing the landing, but we've seen them afterwards. The pyramids were constructed to serve as landing pads and, in the Season 8 finale (Moebius), SG-1 goes back in time and you see Ra's ships on the surface. JBK405 03:42, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] System Lord Flagship vs. normal Ha'tak
According to the article, most system lords have a generic flagship that's slightly larger and more powerful than the average ha'tak. Save for the ones that Anubis and Apophis had, I don't recall hearing any Goa'uld having a flagship. Atleast one which had improvements over the standard Ha'tak. TerraFrost 02:04, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
Now that you mention it, I can't actually recall a specific instance where they make mention of such a ship, either. It's most likely that it does exist, since I can't imagine the System Lords settling for the "standard" for their personal vessel, but until we get concrete proof it's just conjecture. Should we remove that section? JBK405 19:30, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
- It's been deleted. Here's the original text if anyone can recall of a particular instance:
- ===System Lord Flagship===
- Larger than the standard mothership, it is smaller than that of Apophis and serves as the generic flagship for those System Lords who control neither the resources or the technology to design and construct a unique ship of their own. Its capabilities are also somewhere in between those of the standard and of the Apophis ship, though they seem to be closer to the latter.
- TerraFrost 16:01, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Speed?
I have a very hard time believing that a Ha'tak barely travels 4 light years an hour. The Goa'uld have made it to planets inside a few hours that were very far apart, traveling at 3.65 ly per hour would be a very slow speed. I'd say that was a goofup by the writers that those figures were given. It only took the Odyssey 6 hours to travel 23000 LY, granted that was with Asgard hyperdrive but the Prometheus got simmilar figures with a Goa'uld hyperdrive originally and we have to assume that a Ha'tak can go at least half that fast.
Anyone else have any thoughts?
Faris b 09:56, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
The Prometheus got nowhere near those figures with a Goa'uld hyperdrive. Originally it had a naqadriah engine, exponentially more powerful than a Goa'uld power source and explaining its increased speed, then it had an Al'kesh engine (And it was slow as all hell with that baby), then an Asgard desgined engine. The Asgard can go inter-galactic in seconds (literally), no Goa'uld ship has managed anything close to "half that fast". The stated figures seem pretty reasonable, since you never hear mention of Goa'uld ships criss-crossing the galaxy; the System Lords always use Gates to go long distance, or they Gate to a base near their target and take a ship from there. JBK405 03:21, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I took the page off my watchlist and didn't see this til today.
The Goa'uld hyperdrive I was referring to was the Al'kesh one and correct me if I'm wrong but I thought they did good with it but they had to make hyperspace pauses to let the drive cool down. Actually, now that I have taken some new info into calculation, I believe I may actually be correct, in one way or another. According to "Moebius, pt. 2", Chulak is 2000 LY from Earth and Apophis's fleet that was dispatched in season 1 at first took less than 24 hrs to get there which would equal about 3.7 LY a minute which would equal about 87 LY an hour, not 4 an hour. Granted they didn't dispatch from Chulak, they came from that "Klor'el ship" address, it was probably close to Chulak if it were to serve as a base of operations, I mean, ships need to be able to travel to somewhere nearby if you're planning an assault and Goa'uld territory seems to be contiguous and not sporadic.
Faris b 08:01, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
We've never been given any information to suggest that the address Apophis's fleet came from was anywhere close to Chulak. The only concrete information we've been given suggests that Ha'tak's are relatively slow compared to other known spacecraft. How else would burrying a Stargate serve as any means of protection against the Goa'uld? Several episodes clearly state that particular planets are months/years away from Goa'uld military strongpoints, and that the only means of regular contact is through the Stargate. Moving 87 ly an hour would make it possible for a Ha'tak to cross the entire Milky Way in 47 days, putting no point in the galaxy multiple months (Or years) away from any Goa'uld planet. JBK405 19:59, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Good point, honestly, I never really thought about why burying a gate helped, I figured they were too lazy to go and unbury it or they figured there was no point seeing as how the society was primitive. It's possible, I'll do some searching and see if any other figures are given.
Faris b 22:11, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, in several episodes members of SG-1 (Mainly just Carter) have said "This planet is XXX months away from the nearest Goa'uld planet, if they bury the Gate the Goa'uld won't be able to get to them", and other such things along those lines. Of course, this is mainly on unimportant planets, since if there was still an active naqahdah mine or something they'd make the several months journey, but it still gives an extreme speed limit on Goa'uld craft. JBK405 01:37, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I guess you're right. But if that figure of 3.65 LY is true, that would make the planet that Apophis's fleet came from being 84 LY away, most planets are several hundred LY apart so, possible as it may be, it's still debatable. But how this ties into P3R-233 knowing the location of the planet is still unknown. I always figured that was a convenient plot device that wasn't fully thought through, what do you think?
Faris b 06:44, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
There are several hundred stars within 100 ly of Earth (The Alpha Centauri cluster, Tau Ceti (A Staple of all Science Fiction), Regulus, etc.), and the odds are that at least one of them will have a habitable planet; as I menitioned, the Goa'uld seem to have bases stationed across the galaxy for just this reason, so that they can just gate to a near ship and take it from there.
I don't quite get what you're saying with regards to P3R233, I don't have all the designations memorised for the planets. What location did P3R-233 know, and in what episode? JBK405 13:48, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] How many?
How many Ha'tak does everyone think the Free Jaffa have? I'm assuming a lot because it seems they have no problem blowing them up or sacrificing them and it seems Ba'al and his clones have at least 6 or so, probably more. Wasn't it shown onscreen in "Reckoning" that there were 300+ Ha'tak in the Milky Way? How many do the Jaffa have? How about the Lucian Alliance? They seem to have quite a few. To my knowledge so far, 15-19 Ha'tak that belonged to the Free Jaffa have been blown up by the Ori since the season started. Assuming they have a 100 or so of them, that's 20% of their fleet. Do the Jaffa know how to make more of them? I doubt they would because it seems that Jaffa worked on ships and the Goa'uld oversaw the operations. (The camp on Erebus for example)
Does anyone have any insight on this? Just so everyone is clear, you don't have to have a correct answer to reply, reply with whatever is on your mind regarding this topic.
Faris b 07:55, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
At least 100 Ha'tak's, and likely many more.
Thor clearly states (I believe it's Season Three) that the united System Lords could launch an attack against Earth that was 50 times morepowerful than Apophis's attack. Apophis launched two ships, so 50 times as much means 100 ships. I believe it was Season Eight that somebody mentioned how no Goa'uld actually used their entire fleet for an attack, or even the majority of their ships, since they needed the majority of their fleets to safeguard their territory from other Goa'uld. Therefore, that's 100 ships, plus however many the Goa'uld would have held back for home defence. Though many Ha'tak's have been lost over the years, there's been nothing close to 100 ships lost (At least not visibly lost), leaving 100+ ships in the hands of the Jaffa. JBK405 20:05, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, well, still if about 15 or so have been destroyed that belong to the Jaffa, then they need to be more careful. Also, where was this supposedly massive fleet that was guarding Dakara (stated by Bra'tac in "Flesh And Blood")? Did they come to their senses after they lost 15+ ships or so finally or what exactly? I'm assuming that they were evacuated because they were planning on using the weapon but still, you'd think they would have tried to attack it or something some other way.
Faris b 22:12, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
The leader of the Jaffa Nation stated that the area had been evacuated, I'm assuming that meant the orbit, too. With the planet empty and the Jaffa planning to use the Dakara weapon against the Ori cruiser there was no real reason for the Ha'tak's to remain behind. JBK405 01:20, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Shield strength
Was it ever actualy stated that the nuclear missiles fired on Apophis'es ships actualy detonated? To me it looked like they had not taken the shields into acount so the missiles simply slammed into the shield prematurely and where destroyed without detonating (the visual effect sure didn't look like it was supposed to be 2 x 1000 megaton). Nuclear devices are very delecate so it's highly unlikely that the secondary explosion from the impact would be controlled enough to actualy trigger the nuclear reaction. So what the shields shrugged off was just the kinetic impact pluss the exploding rocket fuel (possebly boosted to some unknown degree by the naqahdah), not a 1000 megaton explotion. Yeah ok cruft alert, but I don't think that incident give any "proof" to the claim that a garden variaty Ha'tak shield can effortlesly deflect a 1000 megaton explotion, even when taking things like artistic license and dramatic effect into acount. --Sherool (talk) 10:02, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm not positive, I haven't seen that particular scene in a few months, but I'm pretty sure that an officer at the SGC, monitoring the missiles, stated that the missiles had detonated, not just that they'd impacted the shields (Though he mentioned that, too). JBK405 20:41, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
P.S. Also, though this is fan-based calculation involving information from a parallel universe and shouldn't be put into the article, we've seen them withstand gigaton + force in the form of Staff Cannon attacks from other Ha'taks. As the article states, in "There But For the Grace of God" Alt-Carter states that the effects of the orbital bombardment was equal to 200 megatons of explosive force. She never stated if that meant each individual blast was that large, or if it was just the cumulative damage from extended bombardment, but I believe (Here's the "fan-based calculation" that I mentioned) she meant individual blasts (Or at least a small number of blasts), since even a whole bunch of hand grenades will eventually cause that much damage if you've got enough of them and counting the cumulative damage isn't really representative of their power. If my assumption is correct, even just five shots from a Staff Cannon will reach the range of gigaton-level damage, and you've seen Ha'taks, when combating other Ha'taks, take a lot more than five shots without losing their shields (You've seen them take a lot more than just five shots). Just my personal take.
- Anyway just looked at the missile attack from "The Serpent's Lair" and the dialogue goes like this just after the missiles hit the shields:
- Daniel: "Wow, what was that?"
- Teal'c: "Something may have impacted the shields."
- *Cut to SCG controll room*
- Walter: "Space command report that the warheads struck some kind of energy field just prior to impact, no dammage."
- Col. Samuels: "That's impossible!"
- Walter: "NASA comfirm sir the Gua'uld ships are still up there".
- No mention of any nuclear detonation. Also I very much doubht a staf cannon is capable of anyting close to 200 megaton per shot. We have seen orbital bombardment on several ocations and the dammage have if anyting been quite minor. When Tolana was attacked the blasts from the Ha'tak only took out the cannons. Granted one could argue that they held back because they wanted the city intact, but what about when Baal's fleet chaught Anubises ship floating over that city (name escape me at the moment). A few shots where seen missing his ship and impacting the city directly, yet they only destroyed individual buildings. I very much doubht they would use anyting less than full power to theyr weapons when engaging Anubis'es high tech mothership (also when Anubis'es technician guy was experimenting with the Naqahdriah powered cannon he theorised that the blast might "encompas the whole city", now if your run of the mill staff canon was capable of 200 megaton yield destroying a city in one shot would not have been anything out of the ordinary (just to put things into perspective, the most powerfull nuke ever detonated in real life had a 57 megaton yield and the resulting fireball alone was about 10 Km across and blasted most of it's enegy clean into space)). All in all I don't think the writers of the series have had any spesific numbers in mind so unless there is some official "Gua'uld tech manual" out there somehwere these numbers are just wild speculation and original research that should not be put into the article. --Sherool (talk) 22:31, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
I understand were you're coming from, and I've long noticed that Staff Cannons have often been used with intent to kill without nuclear-level destruction (In The Warrior, for example, a Ha'tak is actively trying to wipe out the Jaffa Resistance, not just scare them, yet blasts landing only a few dozen feet to the side of the Jaffa leaves them unhurt) and you're right, there was never any confirmation of nuclear detonation from the missiles, but we need to write it a better way on the article page. The edit seemed to be having an argument with itself, point/counter-pointing the affair. JBK405 17:47, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- Well what do you suggest then? The current version makes it sound like every shot from a Ha'tak is 200 megaton (or more if they mean business). This is quite obviously not consistent with the on screen effects of every single Ha'tak attack thoughtout the series. What else then can we do than cite instanses where they obviously are "playing for keeps" and yet cause very little actual dammage per shot? A point/counterpoint approach (in one episode this number was cited, but dammage seen on screen thoughout the series doesn't even get close to a tiny fraction of that" etc.) seems like the best way to do this without drawing any definitive conclutions. --Sherool (talk) 18:15, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Ship Shape
There seems to be some inconsistency in shape of Ha'Taks. I think the ones in the film and in Moebius were square-based (as are all pyramids shown), and they are square based a lot of the time when a schematic is shown on a screen. However, they are always triangle-based when shown in flight in the series. Jacobpauldyer 11:19, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
There's many different types of Ha'tak's, and they're shaped quite differently from one another. Ra's ship was only a single pyramid without the surroudning construction, and Anubis's Ha'tak didn't have a pyramid at all. JBK405 23:46, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
