Talk:Religious perspectives on Jesus

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Notice: This is a daughter article of Jesus Christ - It was taken from the mother page made to alleviate the size of the older article. WhisperToMe 07:19, 12 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Contents 1 Title of the article: whether it is POV 2 Votes for Deletion 3 POV Dispute 4 What is a Christian ? 5 Was Jesus married? 6 WikiProject Jesus 7 Nontheism is a religious perspective? 8 Scientology 9 Messianic Judaism 10 Three column layout 11 Jesus in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Merge 12 Other perspectives? 13 Perhaps a table?

[edit] Title of the article: whether it is POV

As discussed on the RFD page, there is some reason to believe that the title of this article is POV. The problem is that some religions discusssed in the article are not "non-Christian" as a matter of fact. Rather, their "non-Christianity" is a POV. Examples include the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the Jehovah's Witnesses, Gnosticism, and Arianism. Thus, we either need a new title, or we need to move these perspectives to Jesus Christ as the Messiah. My suggestion: Lets move them there. COGDEN 06:52, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Agree 100%. This article is very bad. It isn't long enough to have been split out of Jesus. And it is, in my opinion, poor NPOV practice to sequester POVs you don't like in obscure articles like this. This stuff needs to be put back into a major article. Tom - Talk 16:07, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I'm thinking this material could all be moved to the Jesus as Christ and Messiah article. COGDEN 17:54, Oct 29, 2004 (UTC)

Agree. Should we start a Votes for deletion? Tom - Talk 18:11, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Probably. But I think the whole Jesus series needs to be revamped. There's too much overlapping material between the articles, and people keep putting the wrong material in the wrong article. I think the material in this article is most at home in Jesus as Christ and Messiah, because it's about religious beliefs in Jesus that dispute his status as a Christ or a messiah. But instead of Jesus as Christ and Messiah, what we really need is a more inclusive, NPOV article that discusses all the different theological interpretations of Jesus, including Jesus as Christ, Jesus as prophet, Jesus as avatar, Jesus as yogi, etc, and treats them all on the same footing. Maybe the name of that article could be something like Jesus in theology.

COGDEN 21:13, Nov 1, 2004 (UTC)

Yes. I like that idea. I had thought "Non-messianic perspectives on Jesus." But your idea is better. Unfortunately this is not my forte. I should stop watching this page, I guess; you think? And moving what I said from below, if this article deserves to exist, it needs a vision and purpose (both of which escape me). It is titled Non-Christian perspectives on Jesus. But are all gnostics non-Christian? No. Are all New Agers non-Christian? No. This is problematic, as far as I am concerned. The issue and intent are muddled. Tom - Talk 20:45, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Jesus as Christ and Messiah is probably too long to put everything into one article. However, Jewish view of Jesus and Isa are both reasonably brief. Since some of the views of Jesus are much more philosophical (atheist views), what about moving this to Perspectives on Jesus (as suggested below)? It would start with a summary section pointing off to Jesus as Christ and Messiah, followed by sections on non-mainline Christian beliefs (anything that considers itself Christian, but diverges too far from JaCaM) -- better term would be needed than "non-mainline". This would be followed by sections on the other views. We could leave Jewish view and Isa as separate articles with summary sections, or incorporate them into the main text... Mpolo 20:03, Nov 5, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Votes for Deletion

This article was listed on Wikipedia:Votes for deletion Feb 20 to Feb 26 2004. Discussion:

• Non-Christian perspectives on Jesus -- this article is redundant of and identical with Other perspectives on Jesus, a more NPOV title. The article was apparently copied but not moved. COGDEN 07:36, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
  • Vote to delete Other perspectives on Jesus rather than Non-Christian perspectives on Jesus. The "Other" in the title is silly. Other than what? Non-Christian actually explains what the page is about much better. ShaneKing 07:39, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
  • I merged Other Perspectives into it and redirected. Can be de-listed now. Tannin 07:47, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
    • Non-Christian not so good, as it isn't just in contrast to the article on Christian views, but also the articles on Jewish and Islamic views. Morwen 07:54, Feb 20, 2004 (UTC)
  • "Other" is meaningless, and I agree that "Non-Christian" is far from ideal, as we also have articles on Islamic and Jewish views (and these are surely non-Christian faiths). But ... (the $64 question) ... can you propose a better title? I have eliminated the redundancy, but the poor title problem remains. The place to discuss this, however, is on the entry's talk page. I propose moving this discussion there. Tannin 07:57, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep merged article. As for renaming... I hate to poop on this party -- but, unless I am mistaken, Mormons (who are included in this article) consider themselves to be Christian. Maybe, Extra-Biblical perspectives on Jesus, or something like that. Davodd 09:17, Feb 20, 2004 (UTC)
    • Agreed. The merging is good, but the article should be renamed to make it NPOV. But the discussion should probably be moved to the talk page. COGDEN 03:01, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)
  • I suggest moving it to Perspectives on Jesus, and adding links to articles covering the mainstream Christian, Jewish and Muslim perspectives. The only term I can think of that means "anything other than the 'gang of three' monotheisms" is "pagan", which isn't exactly acceptable either. Onebyone 11:39, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
    • Second Perspectives on Jesus move - Texture 14:47, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
    • Support this as long as links in the series stay as "Other..." Still not a perfect solution, though. Anthony DiPierro 15:12, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. Discuss the naming issue on the talk page. "Non-Christian" is problematic if it doesn't discuss jewish or islamic views, but "Other" is even worse. Keep other as a redirect. Anthony DiPierro 15:09, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. Great article, remarkably NPOV at present. Great series in fact. Title is IMO an accurate and inoffensive description of the topic. If particular views are under-represented, then add them. That's no reason for deletion. Similarly, if redundant then remove redundant material. Make a redirect if there's nothing left. No deletion notice at present, just BTW. Andrewa 16:48, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
  • Vote to delete the inappropriately named Other perspectives on Jesus and to keep Non-Christian perspectives on Jesus - irismeister 19:22, 2004 Feb 20 (UTC)
  • The trouble with Non-Christian perspectives on Jesus is that we already have Islamic view of Jesus and Jewish view of Jesus. But this is better than 'Other...'. Keep. DJ Clayworth 18:09, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. Title Non-Christian perspectives on Jesus is fine, no need to change it. Wile E. Heresiarch 09:41, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep article -- Graham :) 18:51, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)
  • How about Heathen perspectives on Jesus? Kpalion 20:34, 6 Mar 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete This article is covered in Jesus. Tom - Talk 15:08, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Can I suggest Perspectives on Jesus by Non-Abrahamic religions? CheeseDreams 20:15, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] POV Dispute

This title is POV, because Jehovah's Witnesses and Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints think themselves Christians, but this article insists that they are non-christians. I think this article is based on Catholics and Protestants views. Rantaro 13:21, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

And Arianism was a major faction of 4th century Christianity. As for the question of Jesus being married to Mary Magdalene , is it NPOV to state that this is strictly a non-Christian belief? User: Dimadick

In which case, merge the Arianism and JW etc. views into Christian views of JesusCheeseDreams 20:18, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Now that the title of the article has been changed, can the 'NPOV dispute' tag be removed? If not, what issues still need to be resolved? Wesley 03:06, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Well, I don't know. Something about this article split and naming still doesn't seem quite right. Better ask COgden. Is it that tough to have a single umbrella article on Jesus in Religion or Religious Views on Jesus? Is this article the umbrella, or the child of the Jesus as Messiah (Christian perspectives) article? I guess NPOV would suggest the first case. Should we clarify the categories and projects and series to reflect that? Other ideas? Tom - Talk 07:20, Dec 1, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] What is a Christian ?

1. The word Christ means savior

Not so. It means "anointed"; it is a translation of "Messiah" Tom - Talk 15:06, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

1. Christians accept that there is a Savior
2. Jesus has been identified as the Christ

Christians generally identify Jesus as .... Tom - Talk 15:06, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

1. Jesus said: "I am the way the truth and the life. No man comes onto the Father except by means of me"
2. The Bible says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."
3. Jesus says: "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."

If your faith honestly comports to this and does not add in things which contradict it, then "Christian" is a fair word.

This is a reasonable POV, but unfortunately we can't issue it as "fact" at Wikipedia since there are strong objecting POVs. You might want to take some time to read all the way through the NPOV doc and tutorial. NPOV is absolute and non-negotiable at Wikipedia. Tom - Talk 15:06, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

However, the issue of being "Born Again" is entirely another thing. Each person must make their own personal apprehension of faith. Those that make one in Jesus's name and by His blood are born again.

Therefore, persons attending or particpating in a Christian religion/denomination who have not made a personal apprehension of faith, are not Born Again Christians

Hopefully this clears things up.

[[User:Rex071404|Rex071404 ]] 05:29, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I commented in Talk:Jehovah's Witnesses#What is a Christian ? about this. Please read this. Rantaro

This is way too controversial a discussion for me to comment heavily on at this time and place. The Christianity article has addressed this topic abundantly. There are some factual problems with the statement above, which I point out, but I don't know that it matters much. This article belongs as a POV section (and already exists as such) of the Jesus article. Delete this article and move any good material to a real article. Tom - Talk 15:06, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I just removed all the groups that I know to be Christian. I apologize for leaving Urantia if that is also Christian. I belive Bahai is a separate world religion and not Christian. If I have been wrong, some Bahai adherent please correct us and remove Bahai from this article. Please do not add Christian groups to this list. Tom - Talk 16:04, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I always thought the Bahai were a sect of Islam (though other Islamic sects sometimes disagree) CheeseDreams 20:21, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Arius thought that Jesus was a creation of God, i.e., he was not on the same level as the Father. His doctrine was condemned by the First Ecumenical Council in 325, but was very widespread during the 4th century until it was condemned again at the Second Ecumenical Council in 381.
• The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the Mormons) believe that Jesus is the literal son of God and not a manifestation; this view of the trinity has led some critics to label the LDS faith as non-Christian (see Mormonism and Christianity). Mormons also believe Jesus appeared in the Western Hemisphere after his resurrection. Church members believe that Jesus taught the ancestors of modern Native Americans, supposedly descended from the lost tribes of Israel.
• Some Gnostic sects believed that Jesus was an Aeon, an emanation of the One, original, unknowable God, who came to Earth to provide the gnosis (knowledge) necessary for humans to divest themselves of the physical world and return to the spiritual world. The Nag Hammadi Library of Gnostic texts discovered in 1945 is a deeply fascinating find for anyone interested in early Christianity and the spiritual teachings of Jesus.
• Jehovah's Witnesses and some other nontrinitarian churches affirm that Jesus is the first spiritual being created by Jehovah, and as such, are significantly Arian in their understanding of Christology. Jehovah's Witnesses also claim that he is the archangel Michael mentioned in the Bible.
• The Urantia Book describes Jesus, his life and teachings as constituting the 7th Bestowal Mission of Michael of Nebadon (Nebadon being the name of the sub-universe in which Earth subsists). Michael is in turn described as a Paradise Creator Son of God, an order of being which brings order and life to sub-universes, who, after seven bestowals as various orders of beings, becomes his universe's acknowledged chief executive. According to the Urantia Book, Jesus began life on earth through birth as any other human, but attained to mortal spiritual perfection by way of balanced growth and dedication to doing God's will. The book describes him teaching and living a religion of personal religious experience that includes for its followers salvation into an afterlife, followed by an ages-long growth-adventure culminating in Paradise attainment. The Urantia Book characterizes Jesus' gospel as the Parenthood ("Fatherhood") of God coupled with the siblinghood ("sonship") of all mankind.

[edit] Was Jesus married?

There has been controversial speculation over the years concerning whether Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene. Some Gnostic traditions hold that this was so, though the Biblical Gospels make no mention of such a marriage. Some have countered that the Gospels also make no direct reference to Jesus remaining single, which, it can be argued, would have been noteworthy in a society in which marriage would have been expected. Several epistles of the New Testament describe Jesus as a bridegroom whose bride is the Church. The Urantia Book holds that Jesus was not married.

[edit] WikiProject Jesus

In order to try to work out the relationship between all the various pages and hopefully get some consensus, I have opened a WikiProject to centralize discussion and debate. We've got several "conflicted" pages at the moment, and without centralizing discussion, it's going to get very confusing. Please join the project, if you're interested in the topic, and start discussions on the talk page. (We need to create a to-do list, but I think the current state is too conflicted to decide even that.) Mpolo 10:49, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Nontheism is a religious perspective?

"Religious perspective" can have two meanings. It can either mean "a perspective on religion", which it does not mean in the context of this article, though if it did you'd be OK with leaving "irreligious" people in the article, just not atheists or agnostics. The second meaning, the one used in this article, is "a perspective that is religious". Using that definition, we should remove the atheist, agnostic, and irreligious perspectives from this article:

Many atheists, agnostics, and deists believe that Jesus was an ordinary human, a traveling Jewish teacher who performed no miracles and made no claims of being God or of having supernatural abilities — and that such ideas about Jesus were invented and spread by others well after Jesus' death.

A small number of non-religious people and others of non-Christian faiths, on studying the origins of Christianity, conclude there is not enough evidence to clearly support that Jesus Christ was a real person.

The deist one can stay if there's something especially noteworthy about how deists feel about Jesus; it sounds more to me like someone just felt like mentioning deism for no reason because of their general lack of beliefs regarding what Jesus is or isn't. Why not just say "Everyone not mentioned above probably doesn't really have a strong opinion one way or another on Jesus, and likely just thinks he was a nice guy." It says about as much. There are numerous articles for secular and nonreligious views on jesus, such as historical Jesus and historicity of Jesus. There's no reason to have it in the article specifically focused on religious perspectives too, blurring the article's focus and casting a POV judgment on the nature of lack of belief in theism. So let's not. -Silence 04:27, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Scientology

I added the Scientological understanding of Jesus - i'm sick of people treating scientology like a cult, it is the fastest growing religion in the United States *Faster than Islam AND Christianity* and should be treated like any of the other major religions.

• I agree with you 100%. Cults are religions too. -Silence 05:58, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

• Your statement that Scientology is the fastest growing religion in the United States is highly debateable. Please provide credible statistical evidence that was not made by your church or a church funded research group.Johnor 08:10, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I imagine that its probably the fastest growing percentage-wise, but I would doubt that its the fastest growing in numbers with the fees involved in being a Scientologist. But perhaps that might shine some light, which can be built upon by the original poster.

I would be very surprised if there are more than 50,000 active members in the US and 100,000 in the world. Scientology has traditionally counted people as members who have read Dianetics - The Modern Science of Mental Health or who have taken an introductory course. They have relatively few main locations and relatively few people at those locations. There is nothing like the attendance at Sunday service for thousands of Catholic and/or Protestant churches. In fact look at the U.S. Census data comparing 1990 with 2000 and you will see that people defining themselves as Scientologists is about what I've said and it is NOT growing faster than several other Christian groups. The data is at page 55 in the document at

http://www.census.gov/prod/2004pubs/04statab/pop.pdf
Johnor 08:11, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Also, cult is a rather relative term. Though one of the definitions is: "Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing." Definition 5A This would apply to many religions. For example, many Christians in general practice a cult under this definition for obsessive devotion and veneration of Jesus of Nazereth or the Bible, or as many Jewish people do with Israel, or Muslims do with the Koran. Cult doesn't mean crazy, per se.

KV 06:03, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

From Wiktionary: "A group that exploits members psychologically and/or financially, typically by making members comply with leadership's demands through certain types of psychological manipulation, popularly called mind control, and through the inculcation of deep-seated anxious dependency on the group and its leaders." I'd say it applies magnificently to Scientology. LamontCranston 17:18, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

How can Scientology be considered a religion when they have no God(s)? Anker99 04:24, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Religion. Religion is a system of social coherence based on a common group of beliefs or attitudes concerning an object, person, unseen being, or system of thought considered to be supernatural, sacred, divine or highest truth, and the moral codes, practices, values, institutions, and rituals associated with such belief or system of thought. Hence, Scientology. Chopper Dave 04:43, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Because they made the claim so as not to pay taxes and protect themselves after the Feds starting getting wise about Dianetics [psychoanalysis with the all sorts of half-baked 'science-y' words thrown in plus past life regression and conducted with the aid of a galvanometer and 2 soup cans] and the many bogus claims made about what it could do for you, not to mention their unsavory practices. LamontCranston 10:17, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Messianic Judaism

I was asked to comment here about the inclusion of the above. I'd be inclined to leave it out myself, because it's not clear that their beliefs about Jesus differ from a mainstream Christian perspective, so they wouldn't represent anything new or interesting, and it's also a very small group. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 05:56, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

It seems to me that it is at least more notable than "Urantia". Is that even a religion? Having briefly read the linked article it just seems to be a book, and in fact the article seems rather dodgy, to put it mildly. I think this issue may need attention. In the meantime, I would strongly recommend deleting it from this article. Palmiro | Talk 17:59, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Urantia is a small movement as well, see here: [1]. Personally I would say they are not worth mentioning here either, their addition to this page is more self-promotion than anything else. On the other hand, the Urantia book has a great deal about Jesus in it, and their view of Jesus is at least "unique", to say the least. Jayjg ^(talk) 18:04, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

On a side-issue, this is the first WP page I have seen formatted into two columns. Consistency would seem to suggest not doing so, would it not? Palmiro | Talk 18:51, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

I tend to agree with you, but it's kind of cool looking. Jayjg ^(talk) 04:47, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Three column layout

Is there a reason why there are three columns in part of this page? It's not normal Wikipedia style, and it's much harder to read, and doesn't scale well for smaller window sizes. If noone minds, I'll remove the columns. -- Jeff3000 02:42, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jesus in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Merge

I think it would be well-placed in this article. The Jade Knight 01:10, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

LDS saints identify as Christians. The discussion belongs under Christian views of Jesus, regardless of religious perspective (ie, the Nicene Creed or any POV doctrinal dispute). Arch O. La 06:37, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

On the grounds that the LDS view needs treatment, but would be disproportionately large in the context of this article, I have recast the other article, which is linked from here. I propose removing the Merge banner in a day or so if there's no objection. Myopic Bookworm 15:16, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

I like this idea, but I think a brief summary of LDS and nontrinitatian perspectives would also be approproate here. Brief enough that it wouldn't be "disproportionately large." Arch O. La^TalkTCF 21:16, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

The section is far too long for this extreme minority view. KittyHawker 21:28, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Other perspectives?

I have a problem with the recent addition of "and other" to the title of this article. It's too broad— how is "Religious and other perspectives on Jesus" different from just "perspectives on Jesus?"? How does it differ from the Jesus article? "Other" prespectives also includes secular historical views re:Historical Jesus and Historicity of Jesus. That said, I also think that Philosophical perspectives on Jesus deserves an article. Arch O. La 06:41, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Perhaps a table?

To make the data easier to read, it could be a good idea to have a table, with beliefs across the tops, and different religions down the side. Eg "Believe Jesus Existed", "Believe Jesus is God", "Believe Jesus is the son of God", "Believe Jesus went to India". I'd do it myself but I don't have so much time (though I may try) Chopper Dave 22:58, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Religious perspectives on Jesus

	Believe Jesus Existed	Believe Jesus is God	Believe Jesus is the son of God	Believe Jesus went to India
Christianity	Yes	Yes	Yes	No
Hinduism	Yes	No	Yes	Yes

etc? Chopper Dave 00:00, 15 January 2007 (UTC)