User talk:70.107.43.161

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Whether I like it or not is not the point. I like Frankie Laine, I have lots of his music, in fact, I listening to his version of "I beleive" right now. He was very good. However its the article that I have a problem with, it has POV material

First of all, Clarion, as used as a adjective, a describing word for those who failed school, means clear [1], used as a noun, a thing in this case, it means a Roman Instrument, what you were referring too. I believe you are using it to describe his voice, thus an adjective, so I believe it means clear and loud.

I use belter because that is how he sang, a belter is not a style of music, like R and B, it is a technique in which to sing. For example, Bing Crosby was always a crooner, even on the albums he sang heavy jazz, he still sang as a crooner, which is a technique, a way in which the vocal chords are used a the breadth is controlled. As Al Jolson was always a belter, even when he pretended to be a crooner. This is how he sang. Any one who understands the technicality singing, as I try to, knows being a belter is great talent, which sadly is mostly lost today.

The phrase first blue-eyed soul singer appears in various biographical entries on him this may be true, but he does not appear in the wikipedia article on the subject, see Blue-eyed soul. Although it makes sense. He is no crooner. But, in the Frankie Laine article singing loud is equated with singing better. This not always the case. I think your, and I might add rude, comment on Perry Comotose shows you bias toward Frankie Laine and you lack of respect toward crooners.

His (Frankie Laine) having cleared the way for other black/jazz influenced artist like Bennett and Presley is well documented
If so, please show me. I know I have this quote from Tony Bennett "I call myself a Bing Crosby singer.' I was very influenced by Bing. I liked the essence of Bing." [2]] (Scroll down to Tony). As for Elvis, I believe Elvis biggest influence among popular singer was Dean Martin See [3]

Your introduction of negative critical opinion re his collaborations with Mitch Miller does not belong in an unbiased article.
Ahh, but it does, to balance. Mitch Miller is known by critics as a particularly poor producer, but for everyone, not just Frankie Laine. He shoved so many Novelty tunes on too so many singer. Just as he did for Sinatra and Rosemary Clooney (Mama Bark and Come-on-A My House, respectively) Also, my quote is sourced from allmusic, which is recommend explicitly by wikipedia, see here Wikipedia:WikiProject Albums. I

Anita O'Day may have been coached by him, she would have pretty good one if she did, it just does not even mention Frankie Laine at all on her wikipedia article.

As for sales they always vary, the biggest I've seen is Crosby, which ranges 400 Million to a billion. I used the source I deemed most accurate, the sourced used now are from a fan site, usually a wikipedia no-no. For example, the Perry Como sales are taken from the BBC.

I'm sorry if you disagree with Mr. Whiteside's comments on Laine's significance in the development of popular song. He is a rock historian whose works include a biography on Johnnie Ray (from which the quote was extacted). If you had any understanding of the music climate of the time, you would know that Sinatra was considered washed up in the early 50s. He was fired from Columbia, and RCA (the label he wanted) passed on hiring him.
Yes you are quite right, Sinatra was one of the bigger singers of the 40's (I believe second only to Crosby) but he began to decline and by the fifties he was almost forgotten. This is very well known. I belive it was even rumored he tried to kill himself during this time (around 1952) when he saw an Eddie Fisher theater billing. Columbia records did did not renew his contract because he refused to sing the material he was forced to sing by the likes of Mitch Miller. RCA passed him by, but he was signed by Capital records. His first LP with them, Songs for Young Lovers, in 1953, was a huge hit, as with is succeeding LPs, Songs for Swinging Lovers, Come Fly with Me with Neslon Ridde, Billy May and Gordan Jenkine and the like. Now, I am not trying to say Sinatra is better, many people on his page try to make him out to be the best, I just feel that to say he made Sinatra seem archiac is just dead wrong. There were many, many crooners who still retain popularity today. I even believe Al Jolson has his own "society" who suceeding in renaming a street near Broadway's after him. Bing Crosby just had an acclaimed book written about him recently, so I would say that many singers still retain their popularity, this is a moot point.

Please, Report me for abuse. By all means.

I hope you can see my concerns. Hitlers article does not explicitly say that he was a bad man, as Frankie Laines article explicitly says he was next to God, bigger than Elvis and The Beatles and better than that archaic Sinatra and "comotose". Hitler article is merely unbiased facts, which, should speak for themselves. While there are many of your claims I do not doubt they do not belong in Wikipedia. I hope we can work together, as we both wish to see more of this kind of music on wikipedia. Especially as fans of the still thriving Frankie Laine.

[edit] Round Two

First of all, I did not write the opening of the Perry Como article, I have written very little on the page, the only thing I have done is added the infobox. I have focused on his LPs. But, they did actually stop counting record sales at his behest, and I am certainly no where near old enough to remember how popular his TV' show was. Speaking of Lps, do you know of any source that would list Lains major LPs (not compilations or anything like that), so I could begin on his, in the I have done Como, see So Smooth

Me (Scarlotti): The article puts forward no unsupported opinions on Laine. The views expressed are those of important singers, arrangers, record producers who worked with him, and music historians.
It does have, to say he has stlye, is POV. To say he excelled at every type of music is POV. To say he was first and biggest is POV. That's My Desire" remains a landmark record signaling the end of both the big bands and the crooning styles favored by contemporaries Dick Haymes and Frank Sinatra. If you are to have this, you must specify that you don't mean "forever. Many of the things I have a problem are wordings, that can be changed. Without really changing the article.

Scarlotti: As noted, the phrase was taken literally from the Virgin Encyclopedia of Music. Laine has stated that he modeled his delivery to a large extent on a jazz trumpet (specifically Armstrong's).
His voice has similarly often been compared to a horn. According to this site [4], used as an adjective it means loud and clear, either way, they both describe Lains voice. Although, I do not believe they had Jazz during the middle ages, as it was a medieval instrument. Yes, many singer modelled their voices after horns, I have read that Bing Crosby modelled his after the cornet of Bix Beiderbecke.

Scarlotti: Agreed. Except for the fact that Laine doesn't belt on all of his records. As one d.j. described his voice: He has "the virility of a goat, and the delicacy of a flower petal." The belter description only captures the virility half.
I disagree with this statements, I believe Frankie Laine always remained a belter, whether he sang quietly or not, however I see how see can be misconstrued, to mean that he only sang loud.

It isn't. First, singing loud was not the issue -- singing with emotion, rhythm, soul, is. Second, no value judgement was meant to be implied. That Laine (and the singers who followed him) made the old fashioned crooners almost an anachronism (Whiteside quote)is a historical observation. Much as rock and roll did to traditional pop. I disagree in this point, although Frankie Laine certainly had a new style, I don't think it made crooners an anachronism, whether Whiteside thinks so or not. However, this is perfectly legitimate as a quote, however when I started editing the article on Frankie Liane it was explicitly mentioned as a fact.

Scarlotti: I apologize for the "Comatose" remark. I just wanted to show that there are a lot of negative opinions regarding Como as well (which were not included in your Como article). I'm a big fan of Bing, if that helps any. I like some of Como's records, but wouldn't count myself as a fan. I am quite aware that there are lots of negative opinions of Perry Como, I , in fact, did not like him up until quite recently. This is mostly his fault, as he sang so many of those awful novelty songs. I only got to like him when I dug a little deeper into some of his, less known (compared to his wildly popular novelty songs), but very good original LPs. Many people only think Como sang those novelty songs (hot diggity, Catch a falling star),but this is like saying all Crosby sang was White Christmas and all Frankie Laine sang was Mule Train.

Scarlotti: Bennett's early recordings have been called "Frankie Laine" copies ("Blvd of Broken Dreams" being an obvious example). A pre-successful Bennett auditioned "Satan Wears a Satin Gown" to Laine, who gave Bennett early encouragement. I just wanted to present evidence, which my or may not be contrary. I think Tony Bennett has both influences, to this is fine.

Only as the "Comatose" nickname would "balance" your Como article. I have long believed that the negative opinion of Miller stems from Sinatra's public grousings. Miller was the driving force behind many of my favorite recordings, and IMO the greatest musical genius of the 20th century. Sinatra attacked anyone and everything (musical style) he felt threatened by. Hence his attacks on Laine, Clooney, Ray, Miller, rock, etc.
There is mention of the Comotose in his article, where Perry Como was watching SCTV and they did a scit, Perry Como Still alive, where he the actor playing Como was in a "Comotose" state. Como greatly enjoyed these scits. Also, I took my quote from all music about the "schmaltz" , I have no opinion on any of of Mitch Millers songs as I have never listened to them, at least his collaborations with Sinatra, I try to stick to the Capital, Reprise stuff. Please see [5]

Miller gave Laine "That Lucky Old Sun," which is hardly a "novelty" song and (again IMO) is the greatest song ever recorded. You can not quantitatively state the greatest song ever recorded, although it would be appreciated if you can point me toward place where I could listen to a preview of this song, like amazon.

DM: I’m going to go back to something early in your ...career. You and a very young Anita O’Day were in the same place at the same time. FL: Oh, yes. Marathon dancing in 1935 in Chicago at a place called the Arcadia Ballroom. She was 14, but they didn't know it. I think I was about 23. She used to walk beside me during the early hours of the morning and ask me questions about why I phrased a certain way and why I sang certain notes a certain way. I said, “I don't know. I'm just singing them the way I feel them.” They found out she was only 14 years old and she was already singing pretty good. They pulled her off the floor. She was too young. But she got a ...job and got going before I did --- wound up as a singer with Gene Krupa before I did, and she tried to help me. We're friends today, but I never see her. When she first came out to California, she lived in Studio City, I think, in the San Fernando Valley. I saw her a few times there, but I don't know how she's doing today. She's in her 70s now and she's still ...working, still singing. This is enough to say that he greatly influenced her, but I would not word as a protege or that he gave her vocal coaching.

Scarlotti: I linked it to a fan site, because the other sources are not online. I own several books on Laine, and the generally accepted numbers are as stated: 125m US + 150m Abroad.

That is fine, as the numbers from the BBC for Perry Como are wrong anyway, so if they are right then thats fine.

Neither Whiteside nor I am saying that Sinatra was made "archaic" for all time. Only at *that* time. Laine's r&b influenced style was a link in the movement to rock 'n' roll and at the time the music he ushered in, made the older crooning styles decidedly unhip.
Yes you are right, although unhip is different from Archaic, or something the belongs in a different time, I would be perfectly content with unhip as the wording.

The Whiteside quote is crucial to understanding the impact of Laine on the music scene in the pre-rock era, as well as understanding his initial mystique (which was later superceded by his western persona). A desperate Sinatra would don a coonskin cap during his performances and honk like a goose in derision of Laine's 1950 hit, "Cry of the Wild Goose." When Sinatra stoops to that level, you gotta know he's hurting. His style of music had come under attack -- and was losing ground to the newer style. I agree, but you must point out only for that time. Although the Frank Sinatra article does no such favours, it goes on and on how great Sinatra is. Scarlotti: It says none of those things. It says that he was bigger than Elvis in the UK (see the UK Chart of All Time) during the 50s; and that neither Elvis nor the Beatles have beaten his UK chart records (which they haven't). Elvis and the Beatles are being pointed up because of their legendary status. His UK chart records beat 2 of the biggest acts of the 20th C. That's a big achievement and worthy of mention.
Of course, and I never deleted that he set two chart records, or the reference.

God isn't mentioned (regardless of my own opinions in the matter), Frankie Lains "I believe" must not have been very convincing to you.

No value judgement was made regarding Sinatra or Como. Sinatra is believed by Laine to be his cousin, and he and Como were friends since the 30s (he saved Como's son from drowning in the 40s). For a Laine article to be against either crooner would be in opposition to Laine's own feelings, and therefore, invalid. To me, it sure seemed that way. Although I was not familiar that they were cousins, I know that they were all Italian, and all liked each other.

Thanks, --Sicamous 16:01, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Round Two Response

First off, why don't you register with a Wikipedia account? I cant find any Scarlotti User, so you could even use that as our name. I could even make you a userbox, like,

Thanks for listing me what his actual LPs are. That really helps, because it does not say in the in Discoraphy.

I'm glad you like my discography's, but do you know of any place that has any better quality pics of his album art than the site you listed, as I don't have his original Lps to scan. The ones I got for Perry Como are quite high in resolution.

"Prisoner of Love," "Bali Hai," "When You Were Sweet Sixteen" Those are not really good Perry Como songs on the scheme of things, as you mentioned your favorite song I will mention mine, which include, by Perry Como, "Once Upon a Time", "So In Love", "You Alone", "A Portrait of my Love" and "This nearly was mine". The Preview can be found here if you are at all interested, [6]

Thanks, --Sicamous 16:17, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

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