Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Orthodox Messianic Jews

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 09:47, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Orthodox Messianic Jews

Orthodox Messianic Jews (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) - (View log)

Delete This article should be deleted and at most the information may be merged into Messianic Judaism. This subset may not even exist, and if it does, it is not notable enough to warrant its own article. Avi 02:54, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

• Delete as for Avi by Snowolf (talk) on 02:59, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletions. GabrielF 06:22, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete given the lack of references and the quotes from the New Testament this feels like OR GabrielF 06:22, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete, complete lack of sources. Need sources to get to square one on WP:N and WP:V. --Shirahadasha 06:26, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment The article's use of quotes from the New Testament as its exclusive source, including as support for a claim that a modern movement exists and has been in existence "for centuries", is but one example of the article's level of WP:OR. Even if the New Testament could be interpreted as calling for Jewish converts to continue living as Orthodox Jews (a view that would appear to be, at the least, debatable), this provides no evidence, as claimed, that "this very thing has existed amongst them for centuries" or that there exists a notable or verifiable group of such individuals today. Best, --Shirahadasha 23:30, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per nom.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 06:37, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per nom and GabrielF. Pretty blatant OR. — coelacan talk — 07:58, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. --PinchasC | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€ 14:15, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete. Lack of sources, per se, is not grounds for deletion. This does read like original research, though, and uses insider jargon instead of plain English (Yeshua). - Smerdis of Tlön 15:01, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete unsourced, likely OR.-- danntm ^T _C 20:36, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete - WP:V, WP:OR. Moreschi ^Deletion! 22:20, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete because there is no such animal! The whole point of Messianic Jews is that they claim to be "like Orthodox Jews" so that it makes absolutely no sense to talk of "Orthodox Messianic Jews" besides which, it's a total oxymoron as if to say there are "Orthodox Reform Jews" or "Orthodox Jewish atheists" all of which would defy logic and reality. This stub is entirely WP:OR and is nothing but a WP:NEO and must go. IZAK 23:16, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete this nonsense. Tomer^talk 00:48, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
• Keep, I wouldn't be going so far as some others and calling this nonsense! I know people who regard themselves as this. Mathmo ^Talk 09:00, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

  Why then is the article completely unsourced? — coelacan talk — 09:02, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

  It is, without room for equivocation, complete and utter nonsense, regardless of what you would call it or what some undocumented people regard themselves as. Some people believe they're aliens stranded here from when Hale-Bopp passed by Earth. That doesn't mean their beliefs are anything but nonsense. IZAK does a good job above of clarifying that this is not only nonsense, it's even oxymoronic. Beyond that, even if it weren't pure unmitigated hogwash, the article fails to cite a single supporting source. Tomer^talk 22:50, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

• Delete. Note to closing admin: check out the talk page also. (YechielMan) 129.98.212.60 17:02, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
• Keep I am an Orthodox Messianic Jew. True the article appears unsourced at this time, but it is a brand new article. I'd say give the author a chance to respond to sourcing the article. Messianic representation on Wiki is like very minimal (in fact I seem to be the only known regular at this point); and I myself am hardly on once a week. The guy who created the article probably isnt on for durations shorter than mine at the most. If people want sources, feel free to request them. Submitting a brand new article for VfD due to lack of sourcing is not the best way to go about it. It will only serve in having the article probably recreated by the original author who may have totally missed this VfD discussion. Shalom. If someone wants me to provide sources, post on my talk page and I'll make it a priority. If you want a website to an orthodox Messianic synagogue check out: http://www.rootsofthemessiah.com/ for sources. inigmatus 03:25, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

  Unless I'm misunderstanding your intent and that of the website you cited above, it appears blatantly obvious that these people make no claim to being "orthodox", and certainly not "Orthodox Jews". On this page, in fact, they clarify that they are not Jews according to rabbinical determinations, which indicates that whatever they are, they are absolutely not orthodox. The fact that they claim to be "Torah-based" is also at odds with their statement of faith, especially obvious in their Paulinist self-contradictory version of the Sh'ma. So, I'm wondering if perhaps your claim to being an "Orthodox Messianic Jew" is specifically a claim to be following the orthodox beliefs of Messianic Judaism, as opposed to what I think everyone else here is assuming, namely that you are claiming to be an Orthodox Jew who believes Jesus was the Messiah. Please clarify. Tomer^talk 04:37, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

  Apparently you are misunderstanding what is meant by the term "Orthodox Messianic Judaism" but you're not far from the definition. "Orthodox" isn't a term exclusively owned by rabbinic Orthodox Judaism, however in this case, a relation can be implied and should be. I disagree with your assement of the so-called contradictory "Pauline" version of the Shema. But this isn't the place to debate theology. An orthodox Messianic Jew is a Messianic Jew who has accepted as many practices of Orthodox Judaism that do not conflict with faith in Messiah Yeshua - now I know Orthodox Jews would say all of it contradicts it, but that's just not the opinion of Orthodox Messianic Jews who live it. Obviously this means OMJs reject the OJ view that God can not manifest himself in the physical. So then the definition becomes not one of an OJ becoming Messianic per se, but rather a Messianic becomming more like Orthodox Jews in lifestyle, tradition, and practice. Thus the most obvious difference between a Messianic Jew and an Orthodox Messianic Jew is that the Orthdox Messianic Jew has a religious and theological reason for wearing a kippa (usually the same reasoning Orthodox Jews do), they will wear a tallit katan, keep kosher (some even glatt); study Talmud as well as Torah; and lay tefillin - basically they observe the Torah commandments PLUS orthodox rabbinic traditions that do not conflict with faith in Messiah Yeshua - namely the theological view that nothing oral or traditional should EVER nullify the clear and expressed written of the Torah. The list goes on: they keep beards, grow out the sides of their hair, dont drive on Shabbat, and live a very strict lifestyle. However, they wont care to wash hands before eating for anything other than sanitary reasons, because Yeshua taught that belief that clean food eaten with unwashed hands was failing to distinguish between clean and unclean as the Torah is specifically clear that we should do, and here a handwashing tradition nullifies this commandment to distinguish between clean and unclean because by tradition one is led to think that clean food is not clean to eat if eaten with unwashed hands - but this is only a tradition and nullifies the written commandment to "distinguish" as the Torah distinguishes and not as tradition does. This is a group of Messianics that are a far cry different from Ham-eating Easter-keeping Jews for Jesus who find themselves inaccurately labeled as "Messianic Jews" by outsiders who don't know the difference. In short, an orthodox Messianic Jew is a Messianic Jew who in addition to observing written Torah, also engages in the traditions of rabbinic Judaism as found in the Talmud and elsewhere, where it doesn't conflict with expressed Torah commandments and the principles of Torah observance that Yeshua laid out. inigmatus 08:09, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

  You're right, this isn't the place to debate theology, but it is appropriate to discuss proper naming of articles here. The statement "An orthodox Messianic Jew is a Messianic Jew who has accepted as many practices of Orthodox Judaism that do not conflict with faith in Messiah Yeshua..." quite clearly indicates that "orthodox" is not a part of the appellation (it also states quite unequivocally that these people are "Judaizing Christians", or "born-again Christians with a few Jewish practices"). What's obviously being discussed is Messianic Jews, and the proper place to do so is in Messianic Judaism. Merge whatever material is relevant from this stub into that article, with proper sourcing, and under an appropriate section heading. It does not warrant an article of its own. Tomer^talk 20:23, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

• Comment In response to this VfD, I have added quite a number of quoted and linked references to the article now proving it's legitimacy and notability. inigmatus 19:05, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

• Comment I've reviewed these sources, and it's not clear they support the claims made. A critical reason is that "Messianic" has several distinct ordinary meanings when used to describe Orthodox Jews, which have nothing to do with Jesus. For example, the article that mentions "fanatical messianic Orthodox Jews" in Hebron refers to a group who are fervently awaiting the coming of the (first) Jewish messiah -- nothing to do with Jesus. Similarly, Messianic Lubavitchers refers to a group of Chabad-Lubavitch who believe that the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Menachem Mendel Schneerson, was the Jewish Messiah. (See Yechi for more detail). Again, nothing to do with Jesus at all. There seems to be a basic misunderstanding about the use of "messiah" and "messianic" in Judaism, which has a very different meaning from its meaning in Christianity. Perhaps this whole article is the result of a misunderstanding. Best, --Shirahadasha 23:23, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

- it's been corrected now. inigmatus 04:43, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Inigmatus? What are you doing? Does adding "Beit Tefilla, however could be classified as an Orthodox Messianic Jewish congregation according to this wiki article." seriously make sense to you? You invent your own personal definition of "orthodox Messianic Jew" and then say you've proved the legitimacy of your chosen definition by citing some website, which doesn't say anything about the term you've chosen nor the definition you've contrived, but then based upon your interpretations of their website contents, you say that according to the definition you've come up with they could be considered "orthodox Messianic". This is a rather difficult to follow, but it's clearly circular reasoning, and it definitely does nothing to strengthen your argument. Tomer^talk 07:06, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, you neglected to quote the far more relevant part of what they do say about your term, to wit:

We are NOT "Sacred Namers," "Two-House," "Dual Covenant/Noachide," "Lunar Shabbat," "Orthodox Messianic," or any of the other bizarre, cult-like sub-movements that have branched off from the Messianic movement in the last decade or so.

It would seem that not only are they not "orthodox Messianic", they abhor the name or any association with how they define the term (which is apparently at odds with your preferred definition). So, again, I'm compelled to ask... "What are you doing?" Tomer^talk 07:13, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

• It's pretty clear that Shirahadasha's concerns are not going to be adequately addressed or even taken seriously, however, they are absolutely correct concerns. The "sourcing" of this article has been attempted with a shotgun, and I still see no reason to believe that any such group of people exists. Chabad-Lubavitch'ers, yes. Orthodox Messianic Jews? Nope, made up, delete. — coelacan talk — 10:26, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

• LOL!!!!!! How did this even get discussed? frummer 07:57, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
  • This is Wikipedia, it's part of the information super highway and anything can drop (in) on it. Instead of "LOL"ing -- please VOTE!!! Thank you, IZAK 08:46, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per almost everyone else here. Ridiculous article. Daniel^C/_T+ 12:54, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
• Comment Looking at the list of editors supporting delete, you don't suppose this is another case of bandwagoning based on the concept of sheer mainstream Jewish rejection of any concept of Orthodox Messianic Jews - of which I am one? I mean come on, I at least know who I am. The sources provided paint a picture of Orthodox Messianic Jews, and the references provided clearly use the term "Orthodox Messianic" to describe them. One would have to be blatantly biased against the existence of Orthodox Messianic Jews to reject their existence at this point. I hope the admin takes this truth into consideration. The article is noteworthy and increases the legitimate knowledge of the Wiki community about a group that gets the rap from both mainstream Jews and mainstream Christians, and if comments like "ridiculous" and "hoax" aren't enough to raise a red flag over the intentions of some of the obvious non Messianic Jewish editors here voting to delete yet another Messianic Judaism related article, then call me blind. inigmatus 22:03, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Or, perhaps, it is an attempt of someone with a self-avowed POV to push it into wikipedia, notwithstanding existing policies and guidelines regarding size, notability, fringe elements, and the like? Just hypothesizing. -- Avi 22:07, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
    • The hypothesis works both ways. Any attempt by Messianic Jews to assert the truth of who they are, what they are, and what they believe, is often met by the Jewish editing community on Wiki with accusations of POV pushing, notability, and wikilawyering. WP:AAGF seems to be a foreign concept to some editors when it comes to Messianic contributions to Wikipedia. Maybe it should be taken as an honor that Messianic Judaism articles are now actively policed by the standard group of "delete" editors above; but to be honest, as I always keep saying in these VfDs that ultimately get concluded to 'keep' anyways in spite of the sheer number of delete votes, submitting an article for vfd is not the best way to go about improving wikipedia; but it sure is a good way to POV push and *gasp* dare I say: "censor" legitimate articles that enhance the knowledge of one exploring the subject. Imagine how much better the article could be if all the time spent in these VfD debates over Messianic articles was actually spent on IMPROVING the article rather than cackling to get them deleted because a bunch of people have a POV that no such belief is compatible with biblical Judaism. inigmatus 22:19, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
      • Inigmatus, you cannot have it both ways. The above is a blatant expression of assumption of no good faith in the rest of the community. You have no idea what the rest of us believe about anything. Your protest about "wikilawyering" clearly indicates that you have no idea what the term means. Please stop trying to talk about the people who disagree with you here, and concentrate on the subject at hand, i.e., the article. You have yet to demonstrate that there is any merit in keeping this article, and, in fact, your latest contributions here, and to the article as well, seem to underscore the correctness of all the "delete" votes. Tomer^talk 05:54, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
        • Given that this proposed "Orthodox Messianic Judaism" is a fringe group of the already fringe Christian group that is MJ, it is not in the least unreasonable to nominate it for deletion under notability. If it is indeed notable, it should be fairly straightforward to show this - the fact that the article has previously cited sources that would condemn the movement as irrelevant in the strongest possible terms (i.e. Lubavitch Messianics) is ample evidence that even the authors and contributors can't find a way to prove notability and are grasping at any straw that's entitled "Messianic Judaism". I fully support notable MJ articles, but this isn't one of them. Daniel^C/_T+ 23:50, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
          • Inigmatus, if you find someone cackling, I suggest a nice bowl of chicken soup. I understand, to an extent, the paranoia you are exhibiting here. However, I do not believe anyone is attempting to delete articles that belong, such as Messianic Judaism itself. The article we are currently discussing is a neologism at best, and a POV attempt to create a linkage with an accepted form of Judaism at worst. Either way, the topic of this article is not wiki-worthy as it currently stands. If the movement creates enough buzz and press coverage (by reliable and verifiable sources -- not self-aggrandizing websites and poli-zines) over the next few years, and justifies its existence as a legitimate accepted subgroup of Messianic Judaism -- in the eyes of more than its adherents and fringe elements(not to mention the laundry list of self-contradictions and other problems raised above that make this look like it falls somewhere between WP:NEO and WP:HOAX, each of which are unacceptable) -- then the article will survive. Until that point, I believe any impartial wiki editor would agree that this is not an acceptable article for wikipedia. -- Avi 23:59, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
            • I cannot wait till User:Inigmatus starts creating articles about Haredi Messianic Jews; Hasidic Messianic Jews (especially Satmar Messianic Jews and Chabad-Lubavitch Messianic Jews -- who would be more "messianic" since Lubavitch already has their candidate and it's gonna be hard to convince the world that Satmars love anyone more than their old "Reb Yoilish Teitelmaum"?); Modern Orthodox Messianic Jews (that should fun, do you think that Shlomo Riskin could compete here?) and how about Religious Zionist Jews, hmmmm, can JC displace Rav Kook? Stay tuned, if anyone can create these kinda articles (with matching templates to provide "understanding" and linkage to even more Judaism articles and personalities, of course) Inigmatus can... so Inig, I hope you are reading those Jewish encyclopedias cause you have your work cut out for you 'ol buddy. IZAK 22:52, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
              • First I didn't create the OMJ article; second, I don't have the time to catch every VfD offered on Messianic Judaism articles and respond to comments like yours, let alone create articles for groups which I myself have limited knowledge of. inigmatus 23:22, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
                • Are there a lot of Messianic Judaism articles? Are a lot of such articles facing proposed deletion? If so, which? Tomer^talk 00:28, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete If we focus on the article's merits ojectively rather than placing it in the confines of a Mainstream Jewish-Messianic Jewish debate, I thinkthis article deserves to be deleted with some of the key pieces being moved into the Messianic Jews article or elsewhere. The subject of the article is too small to warrant its own entry and would be better served as part of the larger movement (I can think of a number of subsets with the various Reform/Conservative/Orthodox denominations that don't deserve their own pages either). Should the group grow in size and notability, a page can be re-created then. But my second reason is that it isn't really a very well-written article. It has a defensive tone that reads like a member of the group wrote it rather than an encyclopedic objective approach. The sources at the bottom are not integrated well and they serve more to simply acknowledge the group's existence than to further the article. If the page remains (which it isn't looking likely) then it needs some massive rewrites. JerseyRabbi 06:45, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.