Talk:Battle of Hong Kong

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Contents 1 various 2 place name spelling 3 Taikoo Dockyard 4 POV sentence 5 Is this statement correct 6 Canadian involvement

[edit] various

Some information from http://www.economist.com/cities/displaystory.cfm?story_id=1825845 olivier 16:07, Nov 15, 2004 (UTC)

Is there any information on the local guerilla forces such as the 東江縱隊? This website seems to have some. — Instantnood July 6, 2005 13:14 (UTC)

See Japanese Occupation of Hong Kong ;-) -- Jerry Crimson Mann 6 July 2005 13:34 (UTC)

See "Strikes and anti-Japanese activities" in Japanese Occupation of Hong Kong ;-) -- Jerry Crimson Mann 6 July 2005 13:35 (UTC)

Great. Thanks Jerry. :-) — Instantnood July 6, 2005 17:50 (UTC)

Shouldn't this have a battlebox? -- Natalinasmpf 14:25, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

I'd do it but I'd rather spend time doing the NRA battles instead... if I ever come around to other battles in the theatre and/or feel the whim, I'll do it. In the meanwhile, someone else should do it... if he/she feels so inclined.
-- Миборовский ^U|T|C|E 22:28, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Done (partially). Still need leaders for the Brits. Should have done another NRA battle, though...
-- Миборовский ^U|T|C|E 00:22, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] place name spelling

I've had changed Wong Ne Chung Gap to Wong Nai Chung Gap. Is it Wong Ne Chung Gap the old spelling? Similarly with Lye Moon Passage. Should the spelling be the new or old spelling? - User:SamGra 28 Nov 2005

Perhaps we'd better keep the names by then, e.g. [[Wong Nei Chung|Wong Ne Chong]]. — Instantnood 10:21, 28 November 2005 (UTC) (modified 17:53, 4 December 2005 (UTC))

[edit] Taikoo Dockyard

It's a bit surprising that the dockyard is not mentioned. :-) — Instantnood 17:53, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] POV sentence

After the surrender, Japanese soldiers terrorised the local population by murdering many, raping an estimated 10,000 women, and looting.

This is a highly POV sentence here as this seems to be taken straight from Philip Snow's book and the number implies that it is taken straight from a Chinese propaganda. For those of you unfamiliar with Chinese language, the number "10,000" is a standard way of saying "many" when a large number is warranted. Great Wall of China when literally translated, is "10,000 Li(unit of distance) Long Fortification" but it simply means, as stated in that article, that it's "infinite". This sentence, therefore, is a blantant copy of propaganda that claims "Japanese were really (or infinitely) horrible." and not to be taken literally. Wikipedia is not a place for a propaganda or let alone a spreading of unverifiable claims. --Revth 01:52, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

"Thousand" in English serves the same purpose as "10,000" in Chinese. Therefore, all mentions of "thousand" must automatically be unreliable. The "thousands" of people killed by the atomic bombs are really just Japanese propaganda. Therefore, the whole article on the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings are just blatant copies of Japanese propaganda that claims "Americans/Chinese/Gaijin/Non-Japanese are really (or infinitely) horrible.". In a Math test, 1000 + 1 = infinity.

How you choose to intepret "10,000" is your own problem, not anyone else's. If you think that quoting a statistic is propaganda, feel free to live in your own world. Phillip Snow is a respected historian in his field, and if you wish to dispute his statistics, feel free, but just saying it is is not enough. -- Миборовский ^{U|T|C|E|Chugoku Banzai!} 02:16, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Re: POV on the number 10,000. In his memoirs, "Hong Kong Surgeon", (E.O. Dutton & Co. Inc., New York, 1964) Dr. Li Shu Fan a surgeon in Hong Kong during the Battle of Hong Kong stated that "The actual number of women raped will always remain a question; but it was large - 10,000 would be an underestimation - and the methods was appallingly brutal." (111) Here we see that the "10,000" figure is used not as an exact number, but as a conservative estimate. I do not think he was using it as Revth suggests (the memoirs were written in English, so this is not a English translation of the Chinese term "infinity".) The figure of 10,000 seems to have been estimated by Dr. Li through two main personal observations. With the understanding that "...only a small percentage of those who were raped appeared at hospitals to be treated for rape injuries" (111) - which is consistent with what history has shown us with the issue of rape - Dr. Li first observed a deluge of rape victims that he personally treated at his hospital immediately after the fall of Hong Kong (111). This can be verified with other witnesses at the time. He also notes that these women ranged from the ages of "early teens to the sixties" (111). The second observation Dr. Li had was around nine months later in October, when he noticed an unusual spike in babies being born. He dubbed this the "baby crop of 1942" (121), suggesting that since the usual time for deliveries was several months later, that the fact that this "baby crop" was almost 9 months after the fall of Hong Kong was further evidence of the result of mass rape that occurred in late December/early January 1941 (121). Furthermore according to Dr. Li, after this "Baby crop", births dropped drastically, so much so that it was "in inverse proportion [to the baby crop]" (121). While one could dismiss Dr. Li's memoirs as "Chinese propaganda", Dr. Li's was a well respected surgeon amongst Chinese, English and apparently Japanese alike, so I am not sure if there could be a better primary source to substantiate the claim of mass rape in Hong Kong. As we have seen in the cases of the past – Poland, Bosnia and Rwanda to name a few - rape cases are very difficult to analyze, especially in war. However, given the evidence of Dr. Li and may other witnesses it would be fool hardy to dismiss the number of "10,000" rape cases as "propaganda" – true it may not have been the exact figure, but it would seem from the evidence that a significant amount of women were raped, perhaps many more times than 10,000. JamesL85 08:33, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

After checking Philip Snow's book, I can confirm that Snow's source of the figure of approx. 10,000 rape cases is indeed Dr. Li's memoirs. JamesL85 08:12, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

The Guerilla Resistance section is also highly PoV. It is indeed very sad that Chinese guerilla fighters have been forgotten, but saying so is PoV. - Cuivienen 14:25, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm sure there are ways of inserting factual information about them into the article. Feel free. -- Миборовский ^{U|T|C|E|Chugoku Banzai!} 23:22, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

The diagram is great but I don't believe 60,000 troops invaded (About 5 Japanese divisions) - I can find reference to 9000 troops Nickhk

[edit] Is this statement correct

"Although Hong Kong surrendered to the Japanese, local Chinese waged a small guerilla war in New Territories. However, because of the resistance, some villages were razed as a punishment. The guerillas fought until the end of the Japanese occupation. Western historical books on the subject have not significantly covered their actions. The resistance groups were known as the Gangjiu and Dongjiang forces."

And then there is a picture of guerilla fighting in trenches labeled Dongjiang. I doubt very much they had enough ammo and manpower to fight in trenches the Japanese troops during the whole war. Especially the ability to stop armored vehicles and air bombing seems a bit limited. It would be really worth mentioning if they withstood Japanese forces in symmetrical warfare all the time. Could it be possible that they fought more in an urban guerilla way? Hidding weapons, ambushing, no uniforms or hidden combat signs, etc. more like other partisan units in their times. Perhaps their way of fighting should be made clear. Wandalstouring 12:08, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

They definitely were not fighting in WW1 trench warfare style. I'm not familiar with the HK resistance efforts, but I would *assume* these are hastily constructed (but possibly quite well hidden - though it's not apparent from the photo if this one is) ditches which serve no more purpose than providing temporary cover to guerilla fighters before they move on and disappear. -- Миборовский 21:49, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Canadian involvement

There used to be much more about the Canadians. Someone cut this out!!!!! why?!?!?!?! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.93.213.218 (talk • contribs).

I moved most of it C Force but forgot to link it from here, which I have now done. My bad, sorry. Grant | Talk