Talk:Bovine somatotropin

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I just merged in material from a separate article, bovine somatropin. Somatropin and somatotropin are both valid words, in fact synonyms, but somatropin is most commonly used for human, and somatotropin for bovine growth hormone. We also need to change the title of this page because somatotropin is not a brand name and should not be capitalized. I posted a request on the help desk because I dont know how to do this. I have already fixed the major links from Monsanto and Milk.Alteripse 18:27, 31 May 2004 (UTC)

Contents 1 More Controversy 2 Potentially incorrect information, confusing formatting 3 ... werirdly-placed boldings 4 Anti-industry bias 5 editing re monsanto's lawsuit against oakhurst dairy; consumer demand for hormone-free milk 6 This Article is a Joke 7 reverted edit re IGF 8 synthetic hormone "genetic engineering"? 9 Who supplies Bovine Somatotropin other then Monsatodairy and LG Life Sciences? 10 Neutrality

[edit] More Controversy

Is it me or does it seem like this article has been edited by rBGH supporters... it seems like every con stated has a snapppy comeback. Pierog 01:10, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I got really sick of the misinformation, and killed a bunch of the outright lies that I could find information that comprehensively discredited. Considering more than half of the "sources" provided in the original article were links to Notmilk.com and related anti-agriculture extremist sites, and all four of the topmost links, I felt it was time to fight back with facts. Try the IGF-1 and Milk and Milk Is Milk links in the sources-cited. I don't particularly like the product, but I just came out of college for Dairy Animal Science, and absolutely everything published by a reputable impartial source says the stuff is safe. Most tested pharmaceutical ever, more than ten years of research by about a dozen different organizations including Cornell, CDH, CDA, and the USDA.

My only admission of guilt is I still can't find an internet source and can't remember the book for the historical use of refined bovine somatotropin in experiments to cure dwarfism in humans.Vaarok 4:00, 13 Jun 2006 (UTC)

I would like to see the controversy of the article expanded. The article seems largely pro-rbST use. For those of you who havent's seen the documentary "The Corporation" go see it. For those that have, you should be relatively aware of the controversy between Monsanto and Media coverage. One argument from the film that I found particularly captivating was the claim between a relationship between rbST and mutations of influenza. I came here looking for more on the matter and find that there is none. As my background lies mainly in the film, I know that anything I would be able to put up would be easily disputable, and this information deserves better backup than I can give it (as of now). Kingerik 19:39, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

I started and wrote the major portion of the article, and I also found out about it through "The Corporation." However, what was shown in the film was all negative things about rBST. There is lots of information to show that most of the claims ARE in fact nonsense (although there are good reasons not to use the product). In writing the article I tried to avoid directly saying anything nonfactual about the product, and instead explain who claims what about the product. If you can find more info it would be great to add, but I suspect that most of what you find will be along the lines of what the article says. YahoKa 03:27, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

I wouldn't mind seeing the controversy side expanded either, or at the very least seeing a reference for the EU declaring the product as 'safe'. It seems unlikely that they would declare a moratorium if they were certain it was safe. Either way, I believe there should be a reference provided for this claim. 203.206.66.254 00:48, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Read Grains of Truth. It is all about the controversy regarding these issues. There should be, maybe is I am going to check after I write this, an extensive section here on GM foods in general. Incidentally, regarding the claim that there are studies that these claims are nonsense, that is BS. You are falling into the trap that many people do. You believe what you hear in the news but you don't get that the only people being asked are the major stakeholders. Scientific journalists are not in the practice, generally speaking for most mainstream distribution (the AP)anyway, of disputing what they are told. And since the major scientists speaking in favor of this technology were the ones who were connected to it's creation, they are not exactly objective. It is also the practice of many corporations and policy makers to scream down any opponent and attack their credentials and credibility. Don't fall into that trap with such an important issue. Listen to what these people have to say and listen well. Most are not asking for study to stop, which it should not. Most are simply saying, "Lets figure out if this is really the right thing to do and safe enough in the long run before we unleash it upon the world". Monsanto is sueing farmers for possesing their terminator gene in the crops that they grow. Many of these small farmers have had their pure crops cross-bred with GM strains because of natural dispersion methods employed by mother nature. This means that it spreads. Wouldn't you rather listen to the respected (until they speak out against these corporate giants) scientists and make sure this technology is safe before it is too late to stop it? Ben & Jerry's puts a disclaimer on their products that basically says that the only gaurantee they can give regarding rBGH is that they will do their best to keep it out. We are all eating GM foods and we don't know what really happens when you start splicing DNA. They are doing the same thing with fish now. Salmon do not grow in the winter, but if you splice their DNA with another fish's DNA than you get salmon that grow year round. They say that these fish, if accidentally released, cannot breed. But what rules of mother nature can you mess with and still be %100 sure? There are several species of reptile that I know about that can change sex when the population sways too much to one side. And if they cannot reproduce, aren't we basically eating cloned fish? I am an athiest, but that does not mean that I condone these things. It has been proven time and again that no good comes out of messing with Nature. So please try to do what you can to make this a haven for true objective thought on this important subject. I appreciate that someone tried to put in some entry and I hope you have more time than I do to make this article better. -Silas B.

General information about genetically modified foods do not belong in this article. If you can find studies and articles specifically about rBGH, you should of course add the information you find. Accusations do not belong in this article; at most I think a statement of: "the integrity of X is questioned by Y because of reason Z" should be added. Please point out specific points in the article that you have a problem with. Where it is said what might be considered biased, I have tried to be careful to keep it clear where the information is from. For example,

"According to Monsanto, milk and meat from cattle supplemented with rbST are safe. Monsanto also states that the only difference between milk from supplemented cattle and unsupplemented cattle is the amount of IGF1 — and that there is not even a difference in the concentration of bST."

This makes no claim as to whether this is true or not, but only that Monsanto has claimed it is. Sources may be limited here (no doubt, so please do find what you can), but like I said, studies from various countries have not shown significant short term risks, or significant chemical changes in the milk. When I get around to it I will try to add more proper citations. YahoKa 05:48, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

I thought the following was an interesting and important point (Jeremy Rifkin actually mentions this in the movie you were talking about):

"Milk production in North America, Europe, and Australia is already plentiful and milk is relatively inexpensive, so those opposing the use of the drug have expressed concerns that using the drug to increase milk production (hence depressing prices) primarily benefits large scale producers, and will narrow the margins that small dairy farms receive for their products"

There is actually similar overproduction with most agricultural products in the US and the EU. In addition to affecting small farmers in the developed world, this has been a major point of contention during recent WTO discussions. Developing countries have argued that First-World exports of excess agricultural goods have severely depressed prices in the developing world and crippled the ability of farmers in these countries to make a living. This "dumping," is as a result one of many reasons for the swelling of city populations in the third world.

I believe that the reason some think this discussion is pro bST is due to the fact that science shows the stuff is safe! I have no association with Monsanto and fear them like I do most large corporations. As one who has worked in the dairy industry for years , pre and post bST, I must say that all the data shows bST is perfectly safe for use in cows whose milk is consumed by humans.

I also must take issue with the quote from Jeremy Rifkin, bST is not a drug. He needs to check his dictionary.

I'm working to improve the article because I think it's important to present an unbiased view of every issue so that people can make a choice about it for themselves. Some people might think my edits sway pro-BST but I'm only presenting the facts. Personally, I'm against using RBH, but only because I don't think it's right to have cows producing so much milk that they get sick. The solution is for people to consume less milk, but that's another topic. I have to go for now, but will try to improve this more. --Anastacie 20:04, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Potentially incorrect information, confusing formatting

Part of the "Recombinant Bovine Somatotropin (rbST) and rBGH" section is confusing. The line "This is in contrast to the findings published by the National Institutes of Health, NIH" is fragmented, unless it's meant to join with "JECFA full scientific report..." If the latter is the case, however, the statement should be corrected; the JECFA is a WHO/FAO committee [1] The NIH conference addressed only IGF's role in the development of cancer [2].

Parts of the article lack objectivity. Phrases, such as "...RBST not be approved for use in Canada..." and "...posed increased risks...", are formatted with bold text. This is unnecessary; it suggests to a reader that certain information is more important than other information (as the author intended, I suspect).

The article as a whole contains an inordinate amount of redundancy. Also, though they refer to the same thing, interchanging the use of the acronyms "rBST" and "rBGH" can become confusing for a layperson. I suggest that either one or the other be used throughout the article, with the exception of a sentence stating that the hormone is "also known as" the other.

Noneus 17:49, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I learned about rBH from The Corporation, which led me to research the topic for a discussion of bioethics. Usually, Wikipedia provides a good overview of a subject with links to primary sources, but this article is completely unacceptable. It is obvious to me that information from any source besides peer-review journal articles should not be included in such a controversial article. There are too many sentences in the article that are opinions instead of facts. I'm a plant (not animal) geneticist, but I'll see what I can do. --Anastacie 16:50, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] ... werirdly-placed boldings

There are a few places in the article that emphasize bad things abough BGH. Seems a little POV-ish to me... If you're going to bold the cons, bold the pros, as well. If not, don't bold either of them. -- N3X15 ^{( Scream · Contribs)} 22:20, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I fixed the weirdly placed boldings. I have to say the article has been ravaged with poor formatting and irrelevant information. I will work on the cleanup over the next few days. YahoKa 19:46, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anti-industry bias

I'm an american dairyman, and it bothers me how this page seems to periodically be revised (quite professionally, I might add) to have a very anti-dairy tone in the source links and examples of the potential risks, namely the Related Legal Actions section and the links, both of which point directly to sources funded and maintained by anti-agriculture groups.

I would ask that the links be divided into pro and con or somehow labelled as such, rather than all presented in no particular order (though, I note, the most-recent and top-most three are all anti) as equally valid.

Dairying is a difficult enough business, it's hard to keep a farm running and have time on the side to counter the often baseless scare tactics of other groups. If nothing else, at least try to keep a balance.

http://www.igf-1-and-milk.com/ http://www.stoplabelinglies.com/about.html

Wow, an outright name-calling on Health Canada's doctor. Whistleblower? Is that all you can come up with Monsanto?

Unfortunately Mr Dairyman I dont think the problems with your US Dairy industry are caused in any part by people who are anti-BST. Some would even go as far to say that BST contributes to your woes by maintaining those high production volumes that lead to your low farmgate prices and sustain the imbalanced bargaining power of the processors and retailers down the milk supply chain (and of course the chemical companies up the supply chain). These are the people that squeeze you for every extra penny that you and your fellow dairymen and women try to save with your hard work each and every day. If you want to carve out a better living for yourself and your children you need to stand up collectively. Get together with your fellow farmers and discuss these and similar issues as one. Re-form farmers' co-operatives of sufficient size so you can bargain on these and similar issues and determine your own futures. If you dont, the industry of the future will consist solely of corporate entities and there'll be no more family farms I can assure you. Ask yourselves this question- do you really have to use BST? We dont (Australia), nor do the Kiwis in NZ and as I understand it you guys in the US are the only ones who do! If the farmers in your state all said "no!" then you'd see an overnight rise in farmgate prices to match the falls in volume. If you went that one step further and moved to organic farming methods I guarantee your family would be better off AND you'd be contributing to the health of your nation, rather than the financial health of Monsanto's shareholders. 203.28.240.20 00:46, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

No, listen here. We need to avoid ad hominem attacks. Just because a huge corporation asserts its product is safe and pushes for widespread adoption doesn't mean it's automatically unsafe, nor does it automatically mean it's safe. We need to consider only the published studies in evaluating the safety of rBST. The rats with the cysts and the IGF was one against rBST, but we have a number showing the milk to be completely safe for human consumption. I don't know what the quantities of IGF were in rats, or if they were realistic for milk consumption, but this really needs to be expanded before we play the corporation blame game.

[edit] editing re monsanto's lawsuit against oakhurst dairy; consumer demand for hormone-free milk

first of all, rude to delete without discussion.

second, it doesn't appear that you read the ny times article on the lawsuit, or did a simple google search to inform yourslef of the significance of the lawsuit. link is below. monsanto sued a small dairy, accusing them of "misleading advertising" and inference with monsanto's profits, on the grounds that dairies that didn't use rbgh shouldn't be able to advertise that to customers who wanted to know. they lost. if they had won, we would have no knowledge or choice about drinking rbgh milk.

the following two links are to 1) a boston globe article about how the consumer demand for organic milk is so high, there are shortages of organic milk. 2) the usda report on consumer trends in organic food consumption. the highest growing sector of the market in the 90s was organic milk. consumption of organic milk went up *%500* from 1994-1999. 1994 is when rbgh milk came out...since no other factor changed in the organic milk market, this increase is attributable to consumer demand for rbgh-free milk. Cindery 01:51, 5 August 2006 (UTC) http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DE3D71E3DF931A25754C0A9659C8B63&sec=health&pagewanted=1 http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0619-11.htm

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&q=cache:lcZXlsOpFmgJ:www.ers.usda.gov/publications/aib777/aib777c.pdf+author:%22Dimitri%22+intitle:%22Recent+Growth+Patterns+in+the+US+Organic+Foods+Market%22+

• I am not trying to stop you from adding information, nor am I denying its importance. But you must add it in a balanced way, and in a way appropraite for encyclopedic standards. For example, you wrote:

Many animal rights and ecology activists oppose industrialized "factory farming," because it is cruel to animals.

You can not draw this conclusion and present it as fact (regardless of wether it really is true). You could say that many people feel that it is; that is a more appropraite thing to write. YahoKa 05:09, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

cutting off chickens' beaks so they can't peck each other because they are stacked in cages too tightly too turn around IS cruel. i don't think the factory farmers dispute that their farming practices are cruel--they dispute that it's wrong to be cruel to farm animals. could put longer explanation--"...oppose factory farming because it involves storage of animals in overcrowded conditions, no access to the outdoors, and physical mutilation." ?

(and that has *nothing* to do with what you deleted regarding the oakhurst lawsuit and the %500 increase in organic milk consumer demand...or the fact that you are supposed to bring your disputes to the talk page, not autocratically make deletions...)

• The edit you made just implies that conclusion. You just can't do that. Encyclopedia is about fact, not about drawing conclusions for people. It could be a fact that 99% of people think it is cruel to animals, but it is not a fact that it is cruel to animals. Content must be verifiable. You can't verify that it is cruel, but you could verify that 99% of people think it is cruel through a poll, for example.

Regarding the lawsuit, yes, that was unrelated and probably does belong in the article; I just did not pay enough attention, and I think it needed to be more carefully written anyways. I want the article to be totally fair to Monsanto, so the diction must be very carefully chosen. And don't get me wrong - I don't think the use of rbST is a good thing or right to do. YahoKa 13:15, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

no, you are wrong. "they oppose factory farming because they oppose cruelty to animals" makes no conclusion--it gives the reason they oppose it. moreover, no one has an obligation to be "fair" to monasanto--there is an obligation to be NPOV. if you think stating that animal rights activists oppose factory farming because they oppose cruelty to animals is a fact which is "unfair" to monsanto (which does not actually run any farms, factory or otherwise) feel free to find a source which claims something to the effect of "monsanto believes mastitis and animal storage in severely cramped conditions at farms to which it sells posilac does not occur" or "...does not cause the animals to suffer" or somesuch.

again, wiki requires discussion on the talk page for changes--autocratic deletion and "you cannot..." are not collaborative or in good faith. one may not slander living persons or post ads, those can be automatically deleted--but NPOV is debatable (and usually is. a way to start an unproductive fight--rather than an intelligent discussion-- is to decide that *you* are the sole arbiter of pov.)

it is even worse to delete additions without "paying any attention"--you need to be a lot more careful about your editing, and yout attitutude of entitlement.

and i would not say i have faith in your ability to judge good writing.

( the animal cruelty sentence the way it was originally written was very flabby and very poorly styled, in my opinion. )

for the record, i do not/cannot drink milk of any kind, and whether the farms are factory or not or the milk hormone-free or not makes no difference to me in milk consumption--i don't have a personal investment in hormone-free or cruelty-free milk. i do not belong to any animal rights groups, either.

last (and least) "anyway" is "anyway"--not "anyways." Cindery 19:20, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Touche about the editing, my aplogies. No need for edit wars. As for for the lesson on informal writing (I'm aware that "anyways" is strictly informal, but you understood what I meant)... I don't appreciate that. Your informal writing is so clearly written with perfect grammar and formatting. I even had to use sarcasm to defend myself. Shameful.

When I say fair to Monsanto, I mean NPOV. If they do horrible things, I don't mean fairness to be a "cover up" for them. I think there are many assumptions made about the company and product, and more information about the negative effects get added than about the positive. I am not a dairy farmer, but it is logical that if there were no positives, no rational farmer would use it. Also, it is often believed they launch lawsuits as a cover up; no one ever discusses that there MAY be some merit to what they say.

I do see your point about your sentence: "they oppose factory farming because they oppose cruelty to animals." However, I think there is some ambiguity as to the implication of the cruelty as fact, whereas my version of the sentence was not ambiguous. Do you see how your sentence could be interpreted as a factual statement ("factory farming implies cruelty")? I think your logic ("oppose cruelty implies oppose factory farming") makes one conclude that if you are not cruel to animals, you do not use factory farming. That is a judegement that factory farming must be cruel. How can an encyclopedia make that judgement? It can't, but it could, for example, give a statistic that x% of people polled believe it is cruel (or the less precise"most people"), or explain that the ban in Canada was because of the problems it caused animals. YahoKa 06:09, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

"it" is often believed "they" launch lawsuits as a cover up? it is believed by whom? who is "they"? to cover up what? your arguments make no sense/are full of holes; i don't find it worthwhile use of my time talk to you about the subject in general. (maybe it's because i'm not an undergraduate :-) in any case, though it has been difficult for you to admit you were wrong, i think we have established that. don't make any more unjustified deletions to my contributions--or anyone else's--i will revert them immediately, and tag the article with NPOV/accuracy dispute if necessary. this is not "your" page. Cindery 07:34, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Wow, you're so helpful. Thanks for the discussion; you really help to accomplish a lot by calling me an idiot and ignoring me. YahoKa 14:40, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

no one called you an idiot (you are the only person who has used that word to refer to yourself) and no one has ignored you (in fact, you are the only one who has done any ignoring--you made deletions without discussion, thereby ignoring your obligation to start a discussion about proposed changes). however, no one has any obligation to discuss the subject with you "in general," i.e.,your opinions about such vague and unrelated topics such as "it" and "they" etc. Cindery 20:31, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

You treat me with a condescending attitude: "I don't find it worthwile... to talk to you... maybe it's because I'm not an undergraduate". So because you're in industry, a professor, a grad student or whatever it is you are ... you feel it is impossible I have something worthwhile to say.

Whether you understand what I say about the lawsuits or not is irrelevant, that was mostly an opinionated rant (and you're right, not on a particular issue, it was just general). I already conceded that the lawsuit information you added should not have been deleted by me, and I apologized. My ultimate complaint is that the diction can be improved for NPOV (basically the one sentence you changed about the cruelty), and I think my argument about that is clear (or maybe not ... ?). My complaint about ignoring me was that you said nothing about my argument.

You must accept that you are biased: "cutting off chickens' beaks so they can't peck each other because they are stacked in cages too tightly too turn around IS cruel." I agree that it is cruel. But this IS an ethical judgement, and no matter how fundamental it seems, you are trying to assert it as objectively true. That is why I have a problem with that one sentence. On an equally important note, how come you never use capital letters? YahoKa 22:06, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

here is my irrelevant rant on animal cruelty: cruelty means to intentionally cause suffering. forced confinement, mutilation, slaughter, etc= intentionally caused suffering. it is not biased to state the fact that acts which intentionally cause suffering are cruel. a bias would come in where a value judgement was made about whether the cruelty was right or wrong.

(i do not make such value judgements, because that would make me a hypocrite. i am, for example, wearing leather shoes. i am pretty sure that the cow who died for my shoes was not partying in candyland right up until someone gave it a totally awesome morphine overdose and it painlessly lost consciousness, all high. i accept that cruelty was involved; to do otherwise would be irrational/erroneous. if i have a bias where consumption of animal products is concerned, it's a bias in favor of using some of them. i don't let that bias delude me about the facts, though--the use of animals for consumer products like food and clothes involves cruelty to animals, to greater and lesser degrees. to be NPOV to animal rights groups, what they are disputing is the ethics of cruelty to animals, not whether cruelty exists.)Cindery 00:07, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I see your point. I still disagree that cruelty can objectively be defined; I think of it as defined only be social standards; i.e. I don't think you can define someone else's subjective experience, you can only experience cruelty yourself or have society agree what is cruel. I think it will depend who you ask and what culture you ask. I'm sure almost all people in the world would think of it as cruel, but I have no doubt there are exceptions. YahoKa 00:30, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This Article is a Joke

Any criticism of this product is buried within a lot of mumbo-jumbo. What a goddam joke. Will someone who really understands the situation and is anti-BGH create a new section? I'll help you defend it but I don't know science or the issue well enough to do it.

• • i agree that it is not really balanced/does not accurately reflect the existence of real-world controversy/debate about rbgh (which is what wiki is supposed to reflect--as opposed to carrying out the debate itself here...) there should probably be a "Controversy" section, as with most subjects that have a serious controversy/controversies. but not knowing "science or the issue well enough" is not really a good basis for having a strong opinion about it!--but i can respect your feelings. helping "defend" is not so great either--we should be collaborative, not adversarial (not that i'm saying it's always easy :-) i added some info about the FDA reviewers complaints during the rbgh review process after reading your comment. if you want to do something to add to the article/expand the controversy info/possible section so that it gives a fuller, more accurate picture, why not review this doc and write up a summary for us: http://www.nfu.ca/gapsreport.html

Cindery 07:54, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Cindery, your addition about the FDA stuff is put into a very long paragraph. It is easier to read if it is broken into multiple paragraphs. Also, it definitely needs breaking up into sections, because the FDA stuff isn't about the details of the product itself, it is about the controversy and approval of it. The product details section should be one or two paragraphs, and controversy the larger part.

As for cleaning it up, what do you think of breaking the controversy section into furhter subsections (so that multiple additions do not break the coherence and flow of the article): fda approval process, human health, animal health, animal welfare, milk markets, media and advertising lawsuits, etc. YahoKa 23:36, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

i agree with you completely that the way i inserted it is clumsy/inelegant/preliminary/done in a hurry, and controversy should be separate section--feel free to separate the way you suggest, and thanks. Cindery 23:50, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

• • Cindery, first, no one can be an expert in all fields; at some point you have to rely on summaries from other people. But even *without* the science, there's an obvious lack of another POV here. And by "defense", I was referring to what I imagine could be a serious effort to keep the information out or bury it in larger sections and laden it with jargon. That happens on wikipedia and Monsanto's made it clear they're willing to take serious efforts, including threats, to keep the BGH info out. I appreciate your efforts but I think some of the assumptions in your post were worth responding to. Let me give an example of just how biased this article is:

 National Policies

   * In the United States, the use of rbST is permitted.
   * In Canada, rbST is not approved for use. rbST was rejected by Health Canada, which ruled that use of the synthetic hormone "a sufficient and unacceptable threat to the safety of dairy cows". The rejection happened after Dr. Shiv Chopra testified that he has been pressured by supervisors to approve the drug.
   * The European Union declared the use of rbST as safe in 1990, but in 1993, a moratorium was placed on its sale by all 25 member nations. This could be a non-tariff barrier to protect subsidized European milk producers.
   * Japan, Australia, and New Zealand have banned the product.

• • Note that the reasons for Canadian banning are given because they don't deal with cancer. The EU reasons are speculated to be subsidies to farmers with zero evidence, and their health concerns aren't captured and their earlier aceptance of the bgh is included to suggest flip-flopping. The whole debate is about IT CAUSING CANCER IN HUMANS and the national policies are all written to conceal that fact. That's why this article is, as written, really lackluster. Just really shoddy propaganda practices. I'm doing a bit of researching myself and updating the article.

..i agree with samuel epstein of the cancer prevention coalition about rbgh, i caution everyone i know not to drink it...but i also don't think this article is intentionally biased in bad faith. i think a good faith effort to be as unbiased as possible about a contentious issue has been made, and i would really caution you to approach editing by assuming "good faith" on the part of previous editors. please believe me when i say i have looked at a wiki article before, had a conniption, exclaimed "was this written by shills for the company or what?!" and even declared that things were carcinogens in capitol letters...and then felt bad afterwards. please go slow/try to err on the side of assuming the best of others/strive towards fact-based neutrality. this is a democratic encyclopedia-in-progess, and kind of a beautiful thing. please knock yourself out changing it for the better, but not at the expense of goodwill towards others, if you can help it.

i haven't had time to review the canada data--it's pretty long and dense. i wanted to be inclusive/invite and encourage you to participate in a key way even though you seemed alienated/disgusted and disinclined to participate--i think that document is key, and that you could constructively channel your dissatisfaction with the article by reviewing it. ? one important thing to keep in mind re the carcinogenicity of rbgh is that the kinds of studies that need to be done to prove it conclusively have not been done. (so epstein can say there have been small studies, and there have--that's not enough. monsanto can say it's "unproven," and it is). elucidating how and why there hasn't been adequate study (and why some people/countries observe the "precautionary principle" and others do not) are key to making the argument that 1)more study should have been done, according to a lot of people. 2) the lack of study doesn't mean there's no risk, according to a lot of people. (remember that "reliable sources" have to be cited, not individual opinions of editors. that means finding sources within say, a country where it is banned who say "we banned it because the lack of study on carcinogenicity was not worth the risk to us"--that would be a valuable citation... Cindery 07:25, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

• • Well, I did edit the article, and I believe I did so in good faith an in ways that keep it balanced. Let me explain some of my reasons. I put the section first because I believe a lot of people come here, as I did, to understand the BGH controversy. In addition ...

• • you seem to worry about the lack of studies conclusively proving a link to cancer. Based on what I've read, I believe you're understating the situation a bit. But in any case, I don't want the article to reflect the idea that BGH causes cancer (unless I learn of studies that show that). Instead, what I would like is to show that BGH has the potential to cause cancer, immuno problems, and so on. So I created a section that address that potential. The section I've created so far addresses the human risks. I think that can be expanded on. And it also needs to address, in plain language, the animal harms. In addition, I think this is the right section to address Monsanto's attempts at stifling debate, including their successful attempt to get a story about BGH on a local Fox affiliate taken off the air. Hopefully others who are interested in a vigorous debate will revise what I've written to make for a better, fairer article.

I made some of those changes, and re-organized info into a controversy section. Controversy should go at the top, because although people may want to look at that first, it does not make any sense to discuss the product's controversy and then further down discuss what the product is. Remember, the controversy isn't about BGH, it is about rBGH/Posilac.

Anyways, I think more info about animal welfare needs to be added. Also, I would like to find some info about antibiotics required (if any?) for cattle who get rbST. YahoKa 18:57, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

By the way, I also think the article is jumbled mess. Nobody's arguments are made clear in the article. Yes, more info is needed, but what currently exists has to be re-ordered and (to some extent) rewritten to be more coherent. YahoKa 19:05, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I enjoy most of the changes you made, YahoKa, but "controversy" is less specific than the previous titled.

Remember, the controversy isn't about BGH, it is about rBGH/Posilac.

The problem is that this is not just the BGH article, it's also the rbgh article. Type rbgh into the wiki search engine and BGH comes up. But in any case I agree that this is a better way to do it. It's just the title that I feel is not clear. I'm hesitant to change it without hearing your and others' thoughts first.

• good job finding ref; good job trying to reorganize, YahoKa. i agree with "controversy" as heading because 1)"possible" risks is controversial 2)that's what i ususally see for wiki articles. (i wrote a controversy section for depo-provera. i think the available evidence for depo is more "damning" than the available evidence for posilac, but it's still "controversy," because there's another side/other sides...) since controversy comes up/can come up a number of places for rbgh, inevitably it won't be limited to "possible human health risk"/room should be left for other editors to add...i think what had been done here, why Yahoka is saying "nobody's arguments are clear" is that an attempt has been made to present both sides throughout the article. straighforward info like "what is it?" "what are the national policies about it?" doesn't have to address controversy. it looks like the controversy has three main parts? a) possible lack of adequate testing b) possible risk to human health due to lack of testing c)risks to animal health  ?

ps: please sign your posts, pretty please. (it makes it easier to follow conversations, especially when they get long and time goes by/new readers come along...)

[edit] reverted edit re IGF

hi, i reverted that edit because 1)it didn't cite any source(s) 2)it wasn't written in encyclopedia style ("it is important to keep in mind..."). there is a controversy that i am aware of over whther IGF is digested/usable or not--check The Lancet. (monsanto claimed to the lancet that IGF was unusable from GI tract, and the lancet pointed out that they had submitted an article several years previously in which they claimed how *much* IGF could be absorbed from GI tract, touting it as health benefit! :-) so, this could be another point of controversy. while you have no obligation to cite the opposing side, you do need sources to make and claims that it isn't aborbed (and be prepared for the counterclaim, i'e, you have to state it as opinion of source, not irrefutable fact.) Cindery 19:47, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] synthetic hormone "genetic engineering"?

Can someone explain how a homone is "genetically engineered"? I'm pretty sure this article needs a lot of work Yincrash 19:20, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

hi-please put new comments at bottom. (i moved it for you, hope that's ok) i know it seems silly--like, wouldn't a new comment make more sense at top? i used to put them at top, too. but, that's they way they do things here, so if you want people to see that your comment is new, should go at bottom. also, helpful to put subject heading if new subject, and mention what you are referring to--else it's confusing/hard to figure out what you are responding to--the article? point in the discussion? i reread both to discern what you were talking about...

anyhow, i think you make a good point--what is the difference between say, genetically modified corn and a synthetic hormone? are they really conflatable? i'm not sure. i did a google search, and all the first hits for genetically engineered + posilac were from organic consumer groups, etc. but also on first page was this new york times article:[3] so, it may be inexact or incorrect, but it is a standardized error, if it's an error. why not research it in more depth, and if you find out what exactly the diff is--if any--change article so it's more accurate? Cindery 19:41, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Who supplies Bovine Somatotropin other then Monsatodairy and LG Life Sciences?

I would appreciate if somebody can advise me the contact details of any company other then Monsatordairy and LG Life Sciences in korea supplying/manufacturing BOVINE SOMATOTROPIN.

Thanks for your help in advance.

Regards,

J S

[edit] Neutrality

I get the feeling the neutrality of this article is - well, disappearing. There seem to be uncited and unbalanced claims, especially for pro-rbst-use (if I could label a viewpoint that way). Does anyone else have thoughts about the neutrality issue? YahoKa 05:32, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

As long as the title is Bovine somatotropin and subtitled as being about rBST there will be a divergence. Intentional or otherwise. I would prefer to see more information retained as to Monsanto's legal attempts to restrain commercial free speech. Should I choose to market apples as not being picked by anyone named Bob, I should not expect a lawsuit by a large and well-heeled Bob over my truthful packaging. Labor discrimination action would be fair game. Likewise, deletion or minimization of the issues of prior restraint of commercial free speech by a large corporation and governmental agencies IS part of the discussion that belongs on thepageOldZeb 08:00, 4 January 2007 (UTC) (Bob-free since '83)