Talk:Conservative liberalism

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Contents 1 A joke? 2 Switzerland 3 Confusion 4 UMP, PP and RN 5 CNIP

[edit] A joke?

This article is obviously a joke. If William F. Buckley fathered an illegitimate child with Hilary Clinton as its mother, perhaps the offspring might adopt a political philosophy of conservative liberalism, but I doubt it.

Not necessarily. It's no more ridiculous than conservatives who believe in deficit spending. There are all kind of strange combinations of beliefs and stances out there. Fan-1967 23:59, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Both anonimous contributor and Fan-1967 are probably from the US. Remember that when you use terms as "conservative" and "liberal" in Europe, they have a different meaning. In some European countries the two terms are almost synonims and they both are often connected with the political right. Conservative liberalism is a typical European ideology, combining economic libertarianism and (some) social liberalism. A conservative liberal is a liberal (see for the European meaning...) who hails to the right. In the US we can consider as conservative liberals both the Libertarian Party and many moderate Republican Party's members, like those who are members of the Republican Main-Street Partnership. --Checco 09:00, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Switzerland

I'm no specialist of Swiss politics, but I do want to point out that I have problems with this edit of Checco. There are two (federally represented) liberal parties in Switzerland the Liberal Party of Switzerland and the Freethinking Democratic Party of Switzerland. Judging by their history, name and what I could figure from the German and the English wiki's, the Liberal Party of Switzerland is certainly the more conservative of the two liberal parties. Therefore I have reverted Checco's edit. C mon 09:26, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Dear C mon, I think you're wrong. How can a liberal party (LPS) which is strong in cities and urban French-speaking areas be more conservative than a mostly German-speaking and agrarian-based liberal party (FDP)? Anyway, 'cos I am not a specialist of Swiss politics too, I won't revert your last edit, but simply add FDP in the list of conservative-liberal parties, alongside with LPS. Indeed I'm sure of the fact that FDP is a conservative-liberal party (it is considered to be at the right of the political spectrum in Switzerland), and if you say that LPS is more conservative than FDP, this doesn't mean consequently that FDP doesn't fit the conservative-liberal category. Anyway we need badly a specialist to have a final answer to our questions. --Checco 18:51, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Dearest Checco. I think we have a bigger problem. This list is original research if ever I saw it. Original research which I like to do, but not wikipedia material. We need to find sources for every party (and most of the article). BTW I think the FDP is inbetween conservative and progressive liberal, leaning towards progressive. See here their four projects for Switzerland (German, also in French): which are 1) investing in science and education, 2) free market economy, 3) welfare state and 4) international openess. The program also emphasizes openess to migration, equal chances and social tolerance. For me that is a program closer to D66 (the Dutch progressive liberals), then the VVD (conservative liberals). C mon 21:17, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Confusion

This article is very confusing in that it fails to make a clear distinction between "Conservative Liberalism" and the more well-known and widely mentioned ideology of Liberal conservatism. Most if not all parties mentioned here as "Conservative Liberal" are actually Liberal Conservative (the "compromise" of parties that can be described as both is a rather poor solution and offers neither a citation nor any real argument in its support) and the purportedly distinctive ideology of these parties is about the same as the one described in Liberal conservatism. Either this article was created based on the false assumption that there really is a distinction between the two (while it is another name for the same ideology varying according to the sources, which in fact I think is very likely), in which case it should go for AfD, or there is indeed a distinct concept of "Conservative Liberalism", but it is not explained in this page at all. Clarifications, please.Justice III 00:01, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

The difference is big: Liberal Conservatives are primarily conservatives (with some liberal tendencies, especially over the economy), Conservative Liberals are primarily liberals (although being more conservative that Social Liberals over many issues). This is not something you can refuse to observe. As you can see there are many differencies between Forza Italia (a liberal-conservative party) and Dutch VVD (a conservative-liberal one) over moral issues: most Forza Italia's members, although being liberal-conservative for their free-market creed, defend traditional values. The Republican Party (United States) is liberal-conservative, but we wouldn't find anyone saying that it is also conservative-liberal. Liberal Conservatism and Conservative Liberalism are different ideologies, the first being part of Conservatism and the second being part of Liberalism. I think thw distinction is very logical, don't you? See also Parties-and-Elections, and especially Parties-and-Elections - Explanations. --Checco 11:04, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] UMP, PP and RN

I put a wrong title to my last edit: obviously I made rollback 'cos I think that UMP, PP and RN are not conservative-liberal parties. Maybe they have some conservative-liberal members, but UMP, PP and RN are definitely conservative (not even liberal-conservative, I guess) parties. Sorry. --Checco 19:33, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] CNIP

I disagree with this edit of Checco's for two reasons:

1. Formal: any one can tag for a reference, saying that something is widely known or refering to wikipedia does not solve this. Personally I'd prefer to see a reference for every party on this list.
2. Substantial: I can find no external resources that describe the CNIP as conservative liberal. Knapp's Parties and the Party System in France characterizes the CNIP as conservative:

• in his model of French parties on p.5
• "(...) the conservatives now regrouped in the Centre National des Indépendants et Paysans (CNIP) (...)" (p.11)
• "(...) the conservatives' Centre National des Indépendants et Paysans (CNIP) (...)" (p.75)
• "(...) the old conservative Centre National des Indépendants et Paysans (...)" p.361.
  

I think their conservative and dispute their liberalism, unless you can provide me with references. BTW VGE is described as conservative on his wiki and his Independent Republicans as rightwing and not as liberal. C mon 17:43, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

It was the party of Reynaud, Pinay, Giscard and so on... and they were liberals: see Giscard's stances on economy and moral issues, it is difficult to consider him as a conservative. Anyway, remember that in some European countries conservatism and liberalism are conseidered similar concepts (see Italy). If Republicans (then Republican Party / Liberal Democracy), which were a splinter group from CNIP, were liberals (they even joined the LDR group at the European Parliament) I can't understand how the party from which they come from can't be considered at least conservative-liberal or as a party with conservative-liberal wings.

Anyway look at: [1] (an interview of Gilles Richard, Professor of history at Rennes), [2] (from the Portail Politique Francaise) and [3].

CNIP is now a small conservative party, but in the Fourth Republic it was a typical example of that parties stuck between Conservative liberalism and Liberal conservatism, so that it is important to not confuse it with the current one. --Checco 18:16, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Quite honestly I don't see your proof: it is based on a small interview (which does not characterize the party as conservative liberal!), a reference to french wikipedia (the third reference) and to the new CNIP you yourself exclude (the second). Furthermore you give me circumstancial evidence: they joined the ELDR, as the Portugese Social-Democratic Party, but I don't consider that liberal; VGE was a liberal, while he is characterized as a conservative! While I gave you references to the standard work on French Politics. C mon 21:56, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Apart from the fact that in the interview Professor Richard says that CNIP was designed by its founders in order to unite "moderate liberals and radicals", that it was based on three principles, "ecomomic liberalism", "decentralization" and "European integration", and that it was formed basically by the so-called Third Republic Republicans (in Franch Republican is a synonim of "liberal"), I want you to note that in the second reference (from one of the most important sites about French politics) there is a list of liberal parties in France, in which we can read ARD, FR, PRL, CNIP, FNRI, PR, PPDF and DL. These are the parties correctly cited as liberal in Liberalism and radicalism in France. I can't understand why you are so diffident about the liberal (off course conservative-liberal) nature of CNIP, and you have no problems at all about Chilean RN or about Spanish PP, anyway you're always an interesting user to talk with. --Checco 22:26, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Always happy to discuss things with you. The interview provides me with no proof on it own that the CNIP is conservative liberal. It's just guess work. I wouldn't call a party committed to moderate liberalism and EU integration very conservative liberal. Furthermore an internal reference to wikipedia or to some 'important site' is not proof (the sites reference for the CNIP is the site of the CNI which you claim is not liberal).

I propose we settle this agreement by moving the CNIP to "parties with CL factions". C mon 23:12, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Look at the article and see if it is now ok. The problem is that CNIP is to be considered an historical party. The current CNI claims to be its continuation but it is quite different, as, for instance, the Italian Democratic Socialist Party is not the same thing as the Italian Democratic Socialist Party (historical), whatever it claims to be. --Checco 23:20, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Seems okay. C mon 10:50, 17 February 2007 (UTC)