Talk:Davidic line

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Discussions from this page can be found in the following link due to the article size

• /Archive1- 04 January 2006
• /Archive2- 11 January 2006 (Topics mostly include BUPC view of davidic line and discussion thereof)

Contents 1 Rewrite of Baha'i View 2 Suggestion 3 BUPC "Adoptions" 4 Use of the term sect 5 Hughes' Davidic Dynasty 6 Recent re-working of Baha'i section 7 Redundancy 8 Hughes updated? 9 Why is there no Jewish view

[edit] Rewrite of Baha'i View

I did a rewrite of the Baha'i section on this page. Hopefully the whole question of who believes what, and to what extent they claim or don't claim it should be clear. No claim is made on behalf of the majority group, specifically the fact the the universal house of justice in haifa has not made any official statement is mentioned. Also, I think it's a little easier to read and cleaner (I hope), without removing any information. I did remove the reference about BUPC believing that christ means messiah, because that's not a belief, that's the common translation, and it's common to christians and linguists too. It seemed too obvious and not to add anything, so I removed it. Lastly, I moved the external bupc site link to a reference to the beliefs-section in the bupc wiki page in the See Also section. The external link is redundant, since it's already on the bupc wiki page -- Christian Edward Gruber 23:17, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestion

Shouldn't the bulk of the arguments presented earlier as BUPC beliefs be re-phrased into an article that's part of the BUPC set of pages? Why it's all on this talk page I'm not really sure. This is not the best forum to present the perspective of the BUPC, I think. Just a thought -- Christian Edward Gruber 00:16, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] BUPC "Adoptions"

I don't know why noting the tradition of adoptions as particular to the BUPC is termed POV. Jensen's The Most Mighty Document is certainly particular to the BUPC, outlines the group's rather broad interpretations of "adoption", and is a foundational document to Chase's claims to the Exilarchy and Guardianship. Neglecting to state that this string of adoptions includes several of this type could lead a reader to think that each of these were what would be regularly termed "legal adoptions." MARussellPESE 13:58, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Noone said the statement was POV. I removed it because it's an extraneous comment, but if you're going to make a federal case about it, whatever. It was removed along with other things that were POV, biased, or unverified. That comment is spurious and uneccessary in my POV, for it implies that the adoptions are not valid and "particular" only to the BUPC, which they most certainly are not. They are all legal adoptions, and Chases has been recognized in more than one court case, most recently by the U.N. WIPO hearings where the BUPC was awarded UHJ.NET over the headless UHJ. So I guess one could say "particular to the BUPC, the Montana Supreme Court, and the United Nations", right?User:Jeffmichaud 06:10 12 January 2006

The WIPC case is so completely off-point as to not deserve mention beyond noting that this is characteristic of the non sequitur reasoning throughout this discussion. The WIPC didn't care who adopted whom, only who was the organization brought before the arbitration.

As noted previously, all that would be necessary to close the "adoptions" question would be to present adoption papers recorded in such-and-such a government office. That's too much to ask, however, as Mason Remey's adoption is not so recorded. But we are, nevertheless, expected to acquiesce and accept that this and all the others "most certainly are" "all legal adoptions". MARussellPESE 15:45, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

~Wrong again. But, like I said, whatever. The Jews didn't accept Jesus because he didn't fullfill their expectations of the Messiah. This is not to draw a comparison to their stations, but their failure to meet others expectations; Neal and Mason's adoptions are not invalid because they don't meet your expectations of a legal adoption. The fact is they are, and have been upheld in legal proceedings more than once.

In the WIPO case they did take into consideration who is the true UHJ, for that was in question, and the question was resolved by looking into the Will&Testament. We have a Guardian who meets the criteria of the W&T (Aghsan and appointed), whereas the sans-Guardian UHJ doesn't even have one to point to, so are obviously operating outside the established Charter for the Institution. You're just plain wrong, and as in most such cases, are attacking the messanger instead of righting your wrongs. You're obviously unfamiliar with the case, and are shooting from the hip. Furthermore, when it comes to succession of leadership of a religious organization, these matters are protected by the 1st Amendment, under freedom of religion. It's not even worth explaining any further. You've won your great victory. Congratulations. Whatever! User:Jeffmichaud 02:01 14 January 2006

[edit] Use of the term sect

One of the biggest thing I've seen in the latest little edit match between MARussellPESE and jeffmichaud is switching which groups claiming to be Baha'is get use the term "group", or are labelled with "sect". While "sect" is a reasonable term applied without point of view, it nevertheless has a flavour of diminuation to it, and the way it's been re-applied by members of "the other" group in this page and others is particularly troubling.

I would like to propose (and I may be a culprit here, by the way) that we abandon the use of hte term "sect" in any reference to any group claiming to be Baha'i. Period. We can use the terms "organization", "group", or in the cases of specific institutions use their names.

What I want to do is, frankly, to keep MAR and Jeff (currently) and others in general from flipping back and forth between unseemly re-edits of the beliefs. I'd also appreciate it if each could consider the edits of the other for a little while before re-editing it. Cool heads need to consider this. This is not a forum for advantage, this is a service to the wider community. Admittedly, that's my own POV, but nevertheless. I think we're close to a fair presentation of both, and we're now in the process of jockeying for position with subtleties. I think we need to stop it and be fair. -- Christian Edward Gruber 14:40, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Agreed — "sect" is terribly loaded; especially when applied to the larger of two groups. One doesn't refer to Sunnis as a sect; nor the Shia. Ismailis might be correctly referred to as such, but would likely take offense.

Respectfully, I deleted references to either group as a "sect" on 09:41, 11 January 2006. I prefer to use proper names.

I'm not comfortable with edits that obfuscate verifiable issues — such as stating that the House of Justice is the only institution with nothing to say, or neglecting to state that the adoptions, which are at the center of the BUPC's institutions, are not based upon their particular views of them.

I agree with Christian that the BUPC POV this belongs on the BUPC page with a brief reference here that these beliefs are specifically theirs and not the Baha'is. The "Christian point of view" section is a very good model. MARussellPESE 19:37, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

~While I would normally maintain that Christian is the most disciplined NPOV contributor I've come across, I just have to point out that in this particular case it was he who first used the label "sect" to describe the BUPC, and "mainstream group" for his own sect. Hence, the "loading". As this whole section was reworked recently by him, it was in fact he who created the dynamic of the term "sect" being used to describe the BUPC; I therefore chose to apply it across the board. No offense, right?

It is my own POV that this whole recent rewrite, while it is far superior to any previous versions I've seen, still contains far too many redundancies. I say this for the conclusion of the statements from the Haifans is that they have no position on the matter. Well neither do the Mormons, or the Republicans, etc. Let's just list everyone who has no position on the matter. Oh that would be redundant, right? If the point is to distinguish the Haifans (who have nothing to contibute to the subject) from the BUPC, then what was wrong with the article (which included the "Note:" of distinction) in the first place? I can't see how this is even a "Baha'i View" when clearly the only Baha'is with a view on the matter are the BUPC alone. What was wrong with the original "BUPC View" version?

Furthermore, MARussell would like the reader to believe that the "Central Figures" take no position on it when Baha'u'llah stated he was "seated on the throne of David" (Proclamation), Abdu'l-Baha stated that the verses from Isaiah 11 applied "word for word" to his father in SAQ, and Shoghi Effendi confirms this stating he was the "Glory of the Lord", "established on the Throne of David" in GPB. The statement is therefore NOT TRUE according to the Explicit Texts of 3 of the 4 "Central Figures", and should be stricken. And, as the UHJ is only to have opinions on matters not contained in the Explicit Text, they of course cannot take a position contrary to the Explicit Text, which in this case maintain that he was in fact seated on the throne of David, as do "the histories of by-gone ages". To this I have completely and thoroughly documented in /Archive2 to wit none of my final presentation of facts and sources has been challenged. Therefore I contend that this whole matter be stricken from the "Baha'i View", as the statements contained therein completely contradict reality, for the reasons stated. User:Jeffmichaud 01:54 12 January 2006

Well someone is contradicting reality. Without getting into the same details again, normal Baha'is, including Shoghi Effendi, interpreted the throne of David figuratively, and never have placed any emphasis on a literal physical descent. There is a huge vault of poetic scripture that speak figuratively of things like that, and another huge vault of commentary by Shoghi Effendi making explicit comments about everything of importance, down to minute details. Nowhere is there the emphasis that Mr. Leland has on the matter, so it's important to note that, rather than making the reader think that it's a fundamental Baha'i belief.

The link to the article on the Davidic Dynasty was deleted again. Just for the record, I think that should be on there. Cuñado - Talk 02:16, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

~Welcome to this 2 month old discussion. Thanks for contributing nothing verifiable, or sourced, but simply weighing in with a superiority complex the size of Oregon. Those broad sweeping statements would surely have put me in my place, and would be impressive if they could be shown true. The Central Figures must be so proud at your valiant effort at defending the Covenant against us un-normal Baha'is. User:Jeffmichaud 12:50 13 January 2006

Please stop - please everybody for the love of Baha'u'llah please stop. This is ludicrous. Not only that, this is bad for Baha'u'llah's cause, whichever flavour you adhere to. It casts ridicule upon His community.

Let me first just say that I already admitted that I was likely a culprit (at the time I couldn't remember, nor be bothered to check) about the "sect" term use. Please take it as read that I have re-considered my use of the term, and stated so above. Second, it is reasonable to mention that the leadership of the group that leads the vast (95%+) majority of Baha'is does not consider this belief a core doctrine (as interpreted literally by the BUPC). The reason it is reasonable so to mention is that to not mention it makes it seem that the BUPC view is more widely held among Baha'is, or more importantly, that it's officially held by the group headed by that body. Regardless of the truth or falsehood of this interpretation, the literal lineal descent by birth-and-blood is not "doctrine". If one doesn't accept that Baha'u'llah is a manifestation of God, one can reasonably say that one is not a Baha'i. If one doesn't accept the lineal, literal, suitable-for-property-inheritance descent of Baha'u'llah from David, then that is not heterodox. If I follow the Universal House of Justice, and believe in the above doctrine - I suspect they would not care. However, more to the point, they have never written that I must care. Shoghi Effendi has not provided explicit clarification of the details of the above. He has said things that lead Jeff and others to conclude that he meant the above doctrine, but "seated on the throne" does not mean literally descended, however much someone may see it as implying the same. Baha'i books, baha'i communities, in the main, just don't talk about it. Jeff is asking for a source for the negative. You cannot prove a negative. If the majority of Baha'is don't care, they're not going to bother to write that they don't care. It's reasonable to not say "baha'is don't care" as a firm assertion, but the wording "many baha'is don't care" is reasonable both in letter and in spirit. In my 16 years of exposure to Baha'is in several communities all over north-america, including ex-christian evangelicals who would conceivably care about such prophesies, they mostly just don't. This whole discussion is ludicrous. We should find a reasonable way of expressing the BUPC position on the matter, identify that "as a doctrine" it is of primary importance only to them (or that evidence that it is important to other Baha'i groups is not available - can't prove a negative after all), and move the heck on. We all seem to have way too much time on our hands. If we love Baha'u'llah, we will not subject his community to ridicule this way. -- Christian Edward Gruber 18:52, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hughes' Davidic Dynasty

Since my original comments about David Hughes are now buried in Archive 2, I feel I must quote them here, as it is being stated that "This is a bona-fide source Jeffmichaud referenced". Here's my one mention of this URL:

"In briefly surfing the web for more information I find that David Hughes in his article on the “Davidic Dynasty” (see below attached) has also published Baha’u’llah’s Genealogy back to exilarch Bostanai in the unbroken male line as well giving all the ancestors each and everyone by the Baduspanid reckoning that Fadl wrote about and Baha’u’llah Himself confirmed in His Tablets." ~12/28/05

In section 16 of that page an unbroken chain of father to son descendents is listed from Bostanai to Baha'u'llah. The lineages of David Hughes Davidic Dynasty have been misrepresented and misunderstood by MARussell. I made an exhaustive effort to point out the flawed conclusions reached by MARussell following his exhaustive under-educated rant about the site's genealogies. Instead of acknowledging these clarifications, my comments went unacknowledged, and have since been archived. It is now being falsely asserted that the discrepencies between Hughes' flawed data and the BUPC's exhaustively researched genealogy chart somehow indicates that the BUPC is in error, as it is being assumed that Hughes is a final authority on the matter. Even though this couldn't be further from the truth, Hughes' genealogy is nearly identical to the BUPC genealogy chart, save a generation or two where he can be shown to be in error. Since the thoroughly sourced proof of this has been ignored and now buried in Archive 2 (7 days from it's creation) , I'll have to restate some of it here; because 1) his chart contains flaws of which are dwarfed only by the flaws of MARussell's conclusions, and 2) he's in no way an expert on the subject, as this will show, and shouldn't be referenced as such. Note above, that my only reference to him was in light of the fact that other non-Baha'i sources have linked Baha'u'llah to Bostanai. Showing that I'm once again being maligned and marginalized by misrepresentations of clearly stated views. So that there can be no further confusion, here is what else I've stated on the matter.

• Fullly sourced explanation available in final post, 4 January 2006, in Archive 2 (repetitive quotes contained in this original message removed by me out of politeness). User:Jeffmichaud 12:46 13 January 2006

Whether Jeffmichaud or the BUPC considers the Hughes documentation bona fide or not is irrelevant. It exists, and is the only documentation available for inspection. That the BUPC "documentation" is not available for inspection leaves the reader with only the Hughes work to consider; and the question as to whether or not it exists.

That the Hughes work contradicts the BUPC charts in not irrelevant. Ignoring this is dishonest; and excising it from the article is suppression.

Jeffmichaud makes the mistake that silence regarding his repetitive argumentation is acquiescence. It actually reflects the argument's lack of substance, and personal lack of interest.

Noting that Jeffmichaud is now quoting himself again and again out of the archive, this repetitive argumentation fails as argumentum ad nauseum, and is laced with ad hominem attacks, non sequitur reasoning, specious information, and unsubstatiable assertion. MARussellPESE 15:09, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

~Bravo on your command of the Latin language. We're all so impressed. How can you say that the subject has "lacked personal interest" when you've picked apart every sentence I've written for the last 6 weeks trying to disprove the BUPC position (who put you in charge of that, anyways?). Now that I've exhaustively sourced and baby-stepped you through the backround information one needs when approaching this subject, effectively shining a bright light on your ignorance, you claim this is not of personal interest? How convenient.

1. You claimed I cited it as a bonafide source, and now that you've been corrected with what I actually did say, you're calling foul for me being repetitive. Stop putting lies in my mouth and repeating myself won't be neccessary. Now it doesn't matter whether he's a reliable source? Is this a new policy?
2. It is your contribution of "though there is disagreement about the accuracy of this descent" that I must take issue with. It cannot stand in this article, because unless you provide a source that actually DOES verify this, the statement is false with the link you provided.
3. Hughes' work does not contradict the BUPC's, your uneducated interpretation of what you read does. There is one name that's different, and Fadl's work alone shows Hughes is the one in error. Nothing else contradicts our chart, as the names in Hebrew are the same names in Persian. You have falsely leapt to erroneously flawed conclusions showing how little you actually know about the subject.
4. Otherwise his info is accurate, FTMP. It is YOUR interpretation of the work that is in disagreement, not the list of names, for that is all that entire cite is. It's not a scholarly disertation, as you imply, but a list of names. And you're entirely wrong as I showed in my reply. That the older children, for instance, have a superior claim is just plain ignorant, as is the rest of your "conclusions".
5. I provide no less than a dozen sources, of the several dozen that went into the BUPC genealogy in my posts to Further Proof in Archive 2. How can you say that our sources have remained "unavailable"? You believe that's a fair statement on your part? Have you actually read anything I've written? I've given author/title/page number for the sources I cited. How much more available can I make them? User:Jeffmichaud 12:00 14 January 2006

For the love of God, stop. Everyone! We're not going to argue the truth of BUPC positions here. It's not relevant. What's relevant is what can be demonstrated (or the fact of what can't be demonstrated) with regards to this belief, and list such sources as are available. Absent any sources, you put what we know. Absent good sources, we put what crappy sources we have. If we don't like sources, we, using NPOV language, identify that the source is questioned by X group or X scholar, etc. If hughes thing is a source, he can be a total nut-case and he can still be sourced - qualify the bloody source. And I really wish that people could understand the point of archiving. We can link into the archive, but re-posting what has been archived is extremely impolite and near to spamming. Especially since the cited archived text is intended to argue a position. This page is not about arguing a position. Wikipedia is not about arguing a position. External web-pages are good for that, and link them in to support the existance of hte belief. But don't argue for the truth or falsehood of a belief here. Frankly even "Baha'is under the provisions of the Covenant" believe "X" is much better than just stating "X". Wikipedia is not a platform, it's an encyclopedia. Can we all just please deal with it? Plenty of things that Baha'is, Christians, Muslims, and others would prefer did not appear are on their relative pages - because this is a communal resource, and it should, insofar as it is worded, be accurate. -- Christian Edward Gruber 19:01, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Dually noted, sir. I absolutely agree with everything you've stated. I'm happy to leave the article in it's current state, provided that MARussell's "though there is disagreement..." remains stricken for the reasons I have just stated in my last post above. If the statement were accurate, I would certainly not object to it, but as I have just noted, they most certainly are not given that the URL has been either knowingly or unwittingly misinterpreted due to lack of subject knowledge. I'm contending that if a URL can be provided that verifies the statement, then so be it. But, as Hughes work actually contradicts the sentiment of the statement, it has no business there. Most simply stated, if you want to say "though there is disagreement about the accuracy of this descent", then please provide a source that actually is in disagreement of him being a descendent. The URL shows his is a descendent. The question of whether he's seated on the throne is obviously a question of debate over how to intrepret these genealogies, but noone that I've ever come across questions whether or not he's a descendent of Bostanai's, which is what the statement clearly says. If there are no further objections, let's put this baby to rest. User:Jeffmichaud 01:37 14 January 2006

Sorry, but this is exactly what Hughes states: "those families which claim royal Davidic descent as a part of their family's tradition and can produce spotty evidence to support their claims, however, their genealogies have gaps and they can not fully document their claims". "Davidic Dynasty", Post-script ,¶(d). He, Hughes, clearly questions the accuracy of the descent. This point can hardly pass un-noticed, as it's part of the record. MARussellPESE 20:34, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Sorry but this is NOT what Hughes states at all! The “spotty evidence” and “genealogies that have gaps” cited by Hughes is NOT the line of Baha’u’llah through Bostanai’s Persian wife, but Hughes refers expressly to the line of the “Shaltiel Family and Berdugo families etc.” The “etc..” refers to all those so grouped as descendant of Hezekiah’s sons that fled to Spain and has nothing to do with the line of Baha’u’llah at all, as every one of the ancestors of Baha’u’llah in the male line from Isaac Iskoi II is given with NO GAPS at all. A glance at section 16 makes it clear, as every "Prince" is given with his death date, and there is not one gap in descent. Whereas the lines for these European families mentioned indicated the missing "gaps".

Kayumarth (1453) of Nur being the throne inheritor of both Kaus the son of Hasan Bawandid, and Bisitun the son of Gastham the son of Ziar Badustaniyan, thus uniting both the line of Bawand and Baduspan whose common ancestor is Bostanai. Therefore MARusell is using this postscript of Hughes' out of context, and is in error connecting Baha'u'llah's ancestors, noted as "Princes" in an unbroken chain, with these European families who notedly have "spotty evidence" to their claims.

Furthermore, concerning Hughes "(note: the descendants of Baha'u'llah are extinct in the male-line)" it the BUPC position that as Mason is the legally adopted son of ‘Abdu’l-Baha, this is continued in the male line through adoption of Mason. This is not a “tradition” of adoption particular to the BUPC but is a tradition of adoption for the purpose of succession” upheld by the Israeli State supreme Court, is the same “tradition” upheld from the Ottoman Law Code and is the same “tradition” upheld by the British mandate as well as a religious “tradition” upheld by the first amendment of the US concerning the successors to the head of a religion.

Bottom line, MARussll cites Hughes, but slashes out the direct reference to the “Shalitel and Burdogo familes”, that are descended from Bostanai through his Jewish wife and which has gaps that are dually noted in the descent lines. Baha’u’llah’s line has no gaps in the male–line from Bostanai (665 AD) to Kayumarth (1453) and from there to ‘Abdu’l-Baha (1921), and Hughes does not refer to it as such. Here is the full quote with the deleted section from MARussell restored:

“(d) those families which claim royal Davidic descent as a part of their family's tradition and can produce spotty evidence to support their claims, however, their genealogies have gaps and they can not fully document their claims, such as the Shaltiel Family, the Berdugo Family, etc. Though, these families have gaps in their genealogies, nevertheless, it is known who their family-ancestor was; thus, the ancestors of these families maybe found on the Davidic Dynasty Family-Tree. [note: the descendants of Baha'u'llah are extinct in the male-line, and, the pedigree of the modern-day claimant Mohammed Mohadjer is highly suspect]”

Therefore I give the section as rightly amended to reflect the facts, as there are no known "disagreements about the accuracy of this descent" in regards to Baha'u'llah's ancestors, at least not on this URL from David Hughes. As this is an article concerned with veririfiable facts, one would have to provide a reliable source to assert such a thing. User:Jeffmichaud 21:16 18 January 2006

Perhaps Jeffmichaud does not understand the term "etc." This is the abbreviation for et cetera which means "and the rest" or "and so on." Since Hughes viewed Bahá'u'lláh as having made such a claim, this note certainly covers him. Why else mention that his line is extinct?

Jeffmichaud assertion that Hughes' genealogy is correct and authoritative is strange. First, it contradicts the BUPC chart in several places. Second — and this is the problem with the Hughes work — it cites no sources for this genealogy in Section 16. (The presence of the disclaimer in the post-script is significant here.)

Jeffmichaud asserts that the Hughes genealogies are correct when it's convenient rhetorically to assert an un-broken male line; but asserts that these are not correct when they inconveniently contradict the BUPC chart.

MARussellPESE 15:07, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

~Why are we back to attacking the BUPC's position? So, Baha'u'llah did make a claim to the throne? I thought MARussell was arguing that he didn't. Which is it? Now MARussell believes he knows what Hughes' views are? Hilarious!

MAR has gone to the greatest lengths to try and disprove the fact that Baha'u'llah's the heir, and now that every arguement has been utterly destroyed, there is nothing left than this futile assertion of his insight into a postscript where he's adding words that aren't there. He's used his version of "logic" every step, instead of going on facts, and cannot show one instance where I've been shown in error. He opposed the Iqlim-i-Nur with no facts, but logic. He's opposed the line with "logic" regarding statistical analysis of the likelihood of Baha'u'llah's connection to Bostanai. I brought forward published sources and the URL to Hughes. He conveniently ignored my actual published sources, and chose to focus an attack on Hughes' research with logic about older siblings claims, etc., and was shown utterly wrong with a litiny of verifiable source in my final post to Archive 2 on 04 January 2006, all of which went completely unacknowledged or opposed. In every instance his "logic" was shown in error in light of actual facts that could be asserted. I am grateful for all this, for it has given a forum to this subject, which is dear to me, and helped to bring forward much of the evidence that exists for all to see. And for that, I would like to thank MARussell for his opposition. My response to the last statements are:

1. I have NEVER stated that Hughes work is "authoritative", yet I continue to be misrepresented on this.
2. I have explained more than once what MARussell believes to be "contradictions" to the work of the BUPC. Namely, that Hughes reckoned his descent from the Badustanian, i.e. the descent from Bostanai's Jewish wives, whereas the BUPC correctly reckons his descent from the Bawandid, or his Persian wife. Both are acceptable, as they reconvene in Kajur, only Hughes would be more accurate, as were the BUPC and Gonzales, in reckoning the Bawandid line, for it can be shown that the Jewish wive's children had no claim ITFP. Then, Hughes is wrong about one other name; it was Aziz, not Muhamad. MINOR in the face of MARussell's conclusion that "there is disagreement about the accuracy" when Hughes even states that "nevertheless, it is known who their family-ancestor was; thus, the ancestors of these families maybe found on the Davidic Dynasty Family-Tree". So, according to Hughes, all the families on his list are from this lineage, even the ones with "spotty" genealogies like "the Shaltiel Family, the Berdugo Family, etc.". Therefore, MARussell cannot try to assert that there is disagreement about whether or not he's a male-line descendent of Bostanai's. If he would like to then a URL that actually affirms this disagreement is neccessary. Hughes is sourcing over 50 different families who all have links directly to David. He's not contesting their claims to any of their "lineages"; whether they have gaps or not. Moreover, in Baha'u'llah's lineage, there isn't one gap. MARussell isn't even considering this, but instead is asserting an insight into what Hughes' views are, even though he's specifically mentioning Spanish royal families and their descendents in his stated postscript. Connecting the "note:" to the previous statement requires this leap that MARussell takes, for it's not explicit. It's his interpretation, whereas mine is obviously different.
3. The way I see it, what MARussell appears to be concerned with is whether or not Baha'u'llah's the "heir" or not, which if he could prove that he's not, he destroys the BUPC position-his apparent goal here. It's not going to happen. First of all, the only information he has on the subject is what I've provided. His only recourse has been to try and tear down what I bring forward, but is obviously found wanting when it comes to bringing forth his own evidence. Tearing down, never building upon something substantial. Pathetic, really. Regardless, he has nothing, and I've only brought forward the tip of the iceberg.
4. The reason is that it's not the place to have to justify these beliefs with an exhaustive study. The issue is whether he's the heir, and to say the BUPC believes he is the heir simply requires a source for that belief. We have it. To state that there's disagreement simply about his lineage is definitely debateable, and sofar noone has been brought forward to show where this supposed disagreement lies. It doesn't exist.
5. In light of all this, I have reworded the sentiments that MARussell seems to be asserting into the article, and in the spirit of cooperation have tried to portray the spirit of MAR's position while keeping in line with what facts we have. It has been argued that whether it's accurate or not, Hughes work is a source and should not be "suppressed". I made the same arguement about Gonzales' genealogy early on, and these same ones cried foul, no way, and no how in that case. Now a double-standard is being levied. If anyone would insist that one should be cited, then I must insist that on the very same grounds they will all be brought forward. Or, maybe the rewording of the sentence can stand as is, and we can at last put this baby to rest. User:Jeffmichaud 21 January 2006

Unless the BUPC will be participating in this 2007 conference, it's reference in the Bahá'í views is irrelevant. (I can probably say with certainty that the Bahá'í administration won't.)

Correct, Jeffmichaud has not claimed that the Hughes documents are authoritative. He's just cited it when it agrees with him ("Moreover, in Baha'u'llah's lineage, there isn't one gap.") and ignores it when it does not.

I'm not sure which refutation Jeffmichaud is referring to. If he's referring to the post where he highlighted the areas where Hughes differs with the BUPC and cited no supporting evidence to clarify the discrepancies or clarify his conclusions; then I have actually answered this by noting that it begs the question. There's no need to answer it point-for-point as the reasoning's flawed. This is a classic example as contrary information is dismissed without any source to so justify.

At best, one can say that they, Hughes and the BUPC, are in conflict — which is what is in the statements that Jeffmichaud finds offensive. One can not state that one, or the other, is correct because the background sources for both are unavailable.

Jeffmichaud has had ample time to offer verifiable sources for this. There's no way that the encylopedia can state, unequivocally, that this claim is verified. The original statement, that there are conflicting views, was intended to not draw attention to that. If Jeffmichaud insists that all the online sources be cited, then let's do so. The following points are clear:

• None of these genealogies provide, or cite, verifiable sources.
• The best source, perhaps, the Iqlim-i-Nur is out of print and in Farsi — this is hardly a verifiable source.
• The Gonzales genealogy is incomplete.
• The Hughes document and charts conflict with the BUPC genealogy — and Jeffmichaud has cited nothing verifiable that can demonstrate which is correct.

The clearest way to put this would be:

"This genealogy, attributed to Grover Gonzales and available on an online Bahá'í reference library, shows significant gaps in the line of descent to Bostanai. Comparing that chart to this genealogy and charts compiled by David Hughes, reveals differences such as where Hughes' Chart 38 identifies Aqá Fakhr Beg as Aqa Muhammad Alí's father, and Hají Muhammad Rida's grandfather; but Gonzales identifies Aqá Fakhr as Hají Muhammad Rida Big's father, omiting Aqa Muhammad Alí. Comparing these two to the genealogy prepared by the BUPC reveals other differences."

but that may cross the line to original research. Unbiased comment would be welcome.

If, on the other hand, Jeffmichaud insists that the conflicts not be addressed because the sources are exclusively online, then the only thing that can be said is that there is no published, verifiable data to support the claim that Bahá'u'lláh is a descendant, much less the heir, of David. MARussellPESE 02:46, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

~I'd like to thank MARussell for the sincere effort at considering the various concerns, remaining neutral and on point with this latest contribution to the "Baha'i View". I would like to ask for feedback on one thing that concerns me, before just changing it myself. I don't believe that the issue "is difficult to resolve as references and documentation available in English or Farsi are scant". I believe it's difficult to resolve for entirely other reasons, and that in fact there is an abundance of "documentation". I believe that, as there are several claimants, the over-abundance of documentation for all the families has lead to a juggerknot over interpreting it. Could my original statement of "Whereas some believe he was the heir of David's throne, the subject of who is the rightful heir to David is a subject of much debate, as there are several claimants to the title" be reconsidered for replacing this statement, or something more accurate?

This is not to open a new hornets nest, and may seem trivial, but I have a different take on all this. For one, the BUPC bibliography is available upon request at BUPC.org, and always has been. Where appropriate I've reference books to make certain points, although admittedly not on every occasion. The reason being that no one book contains the liteny of info on this subject (note: the Iqulim-i-Nur is another hornets nest altogether), as the genealogies from Bostanai to Baha'u'llah alone span three dynasties, some 1300 years. To reckon this descent alone requires over a dozen sources, and this is not the place for that. Just trying to explain to MARussell his errors in conclusions he reached required me referencing around 10 books, and took up 15k of space on this page, requiring it's archiving. As this discussion has unfolded I've brought forward sources, from the simplest, and now to the most complex renderings, all the while wishing only to meet satisfaction of the concerned editors. Somewhere along the way defending the BUPC's beliefs took precedent over staying on topic. This in not an easy subject to summarize, as it took the many members of the BUPC over 15 years to compile our findings.

Hughes bibliography has also always been available, and how MARussell can contend that "background sources for both are unavailable" over and over is puzzling, for on Hughes cite, probably for the same reasons above, it clearly states at the bottom of the page: "the bibliography and/or genealogical tables available upon request, contact RdavidH218@AOL.com".

Well, I contacted him, via email and he sent me his bibliography, and freely answered all my questions, within 24 hours. His sources for Baha'u'llah's section (16) alone contained 15 books, and are very much in line with the BUPC's sources. Hardly "scant" documentation. I'll list them if anyone would like. His and the BUPC's bibliography's are quite similar, although how we've interpreted the info has varied, leading to differences, which I've attempted to explain above.

Wikipedia goes by facts. I have given these FACTS, innumerable time, but MARUSSEL misquotes and/or misinterprets these. So I wrote to Hughes, and like I said, there are NO GAPS is the Genealogy of Baha’u’llah in the male line, and in reference to "Post-script d.)", he explained that the “etc” DOES NOT refer to Baha’u’llah. Hughes further stated that: “his [Baha’u’llah’s] pedigree now would be accepted by academia”.

Hughes' email back to me citing my specific questions to him - Mon, 23 Jan 2006 10:49:04 EST:

you [Jeff]: “My specific question is whether or not the "etc." in your note has to do with the family line from Bostanai to Baha'u'llah (section 16), for he is referred to in parenthesis in this post-script (d). Are you saying that Baha'u'llah's descent from Bostanai is also "spotty"? “

me [Hughes]: NO, the pedigree of Baha'u'llah has NO gaps -i guess i need to re-write that section”

you [JEFF]: Does his ancestry, as far as you know, also contain "spotty evidence"?

me [HUGHES]: “NONE, i think that all of the "bugs" have been worked out in his pedigree, and that his pedigree now would be accepted by academia”-David”

So there's that. He's welcomed anyone to write to him on his cite, so feel free. I would like to request feedback, based on these things, regarding the statement, "is difficult to resolve as references and documentation available in English or Farsi are scant". User:Jeffmichaud 23:47 23 January 2006

I'd tried to get a hold of Hughes via that email link and it was down when this site was originally brought up. Glad to see it's available now.

Actually, Jeffmichaud has not cited the sources for his "facts" at all along this eight-week plus oddysey. (The reader may review the record for themselves.) I've linked to Wikipedia:verifiability several times, but apparently have to excerpt the appropriate section from it:

"Articles in Wikipedia should refer to facts, assertions, theories, ideas, claims, opinions, and arguments that have been published by a reputable or credible publisher. The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth." [Emphasis is Wikipedia's.]

Let me emphasize "published by a reputable or credible publisher." This doesn't include self-published, blogged, or stuff on websites per the policy. Personally, a simple rule-of-thumb is: If it's got an ISBN, it's credibly published.

Published data available does really appear to be indeed scant — at least based on the material presented to date here. Frankly, the vast majority of the "fact" presented in this discussion appears to have been original research.

I've linked to Hughes' work based on his own assertion that documentation is available. It's a marginal source, but is the only suite of documents available that allow the reader to critically compare to the BUPC chart.

So, if Hughes' bibliography includes published works, then please post them here. Please use Wikipedia:Citing sources, or any style guide (Strunk & White's The Elements of Style is a solid stand-by, but any encyclopedic dictionary should have an abbreviated one.), so that the author, title, publication data (publisher and date) are clear. ISBN's would be ideal. It's all I've been asking for to support including the charts as supporting evidence — something that the reader can review for themselves.

The BUPC sources should be cited here as well, and as thoroughly — something that's been available from the beginning. That might explain the differences between the two sets of genealogies.

MARussellPESE 14:17, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Really, until there are cited sources for any of these genealogies the statements that published references and documentation is scant is true — even charitable — as they really appear, as of this writing, to be non-existent. Jeffmichaud has been given the benefit of the doubt pending his posting them. Over eight weeks have elapsed since I asked for them.

If he wants to note several claimants that's fine with me. MARussellPESE 13:44, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

After now ten weeks of this discussion, Jeffmichaud is not yet able to present a bibliography for the BUPC genealogy? The Hughes documents are interesting, but in Farsi mostly apparently, so the statement that references are scant in English is certainly still true. I'll look into them to see if they are all there. MARussellPESE 13:48, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Recent re-working of Baha'i section

I like the recent re-wording. It seems to flow better, and clarifies the extent of what documentation can be sourced on the topic nicely. -- Christian Edward Gruber 04:32, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Redundancy

Now the entire section on the throne of David is repeated on the BUPC belief section. I mentioned avoiding redundancy and putting it on one or the other, and now Jeffmichaud took the opportunity to copy-edit a bunch of stuff onto the BUPC page. Any suggestions? I think one of the pages should have a brief summary of a few sentences and the other a few paragraphs that aren't copy-edited. Cuñado - Talk 19:41, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I think that the BUPC page is the appropriate place to expand on the topic. I don't see it as redundant. (There are other redundancies in those articles.) I think the Davidic line article is only a tad wordy.

This is a big deal to them, and if they can properly source the beliefs, they ought to have it on. The articles inter-link and as long as they continue to and one shows the available references, that's good enough for me. MARussellPESE 21:06, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hughes updated?

Jeff, I did not line up Gonzales with the BUPC chart for a side-by-side comparison. The gaps in Gonzales' chart were compelling enough. I wasn't aware (You may have told me, but I missed it?) that Gonzales is a foundational reference for the BUPC chart. Is there a reference for this? Without that, the charts do "conflict" because the gaps in Gonzales don't confirm all the statements in the BUPC chart.

I did do a detailed side-by-side comparison of the Hughes and BUPC charts. I spent the better part of a weekend highlighting the various differences. (An experience I'd like not to repeat.) Some of these are detailed above. To me the most significant differences were that Hughes noted several places where the lineage of Bahá'u'lláh passes through younger sons. This is a significant challenge to the BUPC position which the BUPC chart and their discussions glosses over this completely, which doesn't lend the BUPC position credibility. This is the heir-vs-descendant argument from above, which I don't believe the you've answered.

You said elsewhere that Hughes recently updated his genealogy after discussion with BUPC. On a cursory glance, the article has been reformated, but I don't initially see that it's been updated significantly. Most importantly, Hughes still notes several junior sons along Bahá'u'lláh's line of descent. Hughes' inclusion of Baha'u'llah in his Postscript note (h) "pretenders" doesn't suggenst that he's convinced that Baha'u'llah is "the" heir, just perhaps a descendant. So this independent source still conflicts with the BUPC position that he's the heir.

Arguing that any patrilineal descendant can, or is, the heir is a theological one, and would conflict with, what I understand the meaning of "heir" to be: first-born patrilineal descendant. The article as it stands seems clear, inclusive, and NPOV. The BUPC claim not only descent, which Hughes confirms but Gonzales can't support, but inheritance, which Hughes does not confirm and seems to actually disprove. The Baha'i response side-steps the question by asserting that this is largely symbolic. MARussellPESE 13:47, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

I see your point, I guess. FTR, I believe I shared with you the exact response from Hughes himself about the postscript, in that Baha'u'llah's descent has no gaps, and he believed his genealogy would be accepted by academia. His inclusion in the postscript was to note the line had ended with Shoghi Effendi "who had no issue". I also beleive that your understanding of hier is trumped by the Bible itself, for the King can appoint whomsoever he chooses, and is in no way bound by the first born issue. This only applies in the law of Primogeniture when there are no other siblings. David was the youngest of his father's eighth wife. Solomon was a younger brother, and so wasn't Rehobom. The first three descendents along this family line (among many others) were not the first-born. I don't believe your presumptions are accurate here. I do not intend to get into a whole big thing about it, for you haven't contributed anything to these articles that warrants a challenge. I'm just stating these things for the record. Jeff 19:14, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Interesting. Many, many questions are raised by this. Does Old Testament law on succession apply? What about Quranic Law, when Abdul-Baha interprets OT prophecies using the Islamic calendar? These are not convincing to Jews and Christians.

More to the point: If the legacy is dependent upon the person being designated as the heir, have each-and-every one of Baha'u'llah's ancestors had the legacy formally passed on to them? Can each of those steps be documented explicitly? Wow, now that's a high bar to clear. Not trying to be flippant, but that's a very simple, yet inescapable, question when this is assumed to be literally true. And Hughes doesn't begin to address the documentation supporting that.

Discussions of "rightful heirs" is almost always a dark alley. English history alone is replete with this. German history of alliances, marriages and successions is almost opaque. The successive reigns of Mary I and Elizabeth I were steeped sectarian violence. Her successor James I was supposed to resolve that, but only opened a long period of unrest with Parliament (His authoritarianism and their religious intolerance were an ugly mix.) setting the stage for the English Civil War, and later Parliamentary gymnastics bringing George I to the throne. Although wildly unpopular personally, he was preferable to a <gasp> Catholic.

This is just one example of why I don't set my belief on Baha'u'llah being the literal heir. Proving that to sceptical inquiry would be next to impossible.

Lastly, I was noting the current Hughes footnote, not the old one. MARussellPESE 21:55, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why is there no Jewish view

Why is there no Jewish view???????????

That is called the "History" section Johnbod 13:37, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Java, your "Jewish view" doesn't cite any references, and is basically 2 or 3 run-on sentences. I have further concerns that it's written not so much as a "Jewish veiw" of the Davidic line, but "Java's view" of why Jesus isn't the Messiah. That's not the purpose of this article, or frankly Wikipedia. This isn't a message board for debunking other peoples beliefs. Even if you did contribute such a thing, it's not written from a NPOV, so it can't stay. Frankly I don't even disagree with you, so this has nothing to do with my religious inclinations. It's not an appropriate contributions for these specific reasons. Jeff 19:15, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I edited out of it anything offensive--Java7837 22:52, 19 February 2007 (UTC) and kept only useful stuff such as it's importance being the messiah is of the davidic line i also commented on the fact that king david was of the tribe of judah etc. nothing offensive--Java7837 22:52, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

The language is still hardly encyclopedic, and the main section of the article is the Jewish view of the subject in general - what you are giving is the Jewish view of the Christian view! Johnbod 23:02, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

My original comments about the value of this new section are still the main reason I have removed this section again. Citing references and maintaining Neutral Point of View is Wiki policy, not my preference. Please don't mistake these edits as personal in nature, for they are not. It's not about what's "offensive", for that is a subjective thing, which isn't relevent to Wikipedia. If you can cite sources for these statement then they are valid contributions. As of now they are not.

You may also want to note that there are already entire articles devoted to the ideas you're putting forward, and that one possible remedy to the void you're trying to fill might be to simply link to one of them, like the article Judaism's view of Jesus. One or two lines in the body of the existing "History" section might fill this apparent void you have struck upon while maintaining Wiki-appropriateness (I made that word up). Jeff 02:16, 20 February 2007 (UTC)