Talk:Dutch-Americans
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[edit] Question
Nice article, but what do you mean exactly with
In the 1840s, the Dutch farmer immigrants were accompanied by Reformed Christian immigrants fleeing religious persecution
The Netherlands are not known for religious intolerance. Often emigrants do not find the place they leave behind not to their religious taste but these people can also be labeled as religious fundamentalists. V8rik 22:40, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
(While I agree in general, Catholics have been regarded as second rate citizens for centuries after the independance, and in some times (1600s) even persecuted, this was one of the factors why Belgium separated)
To my knowledge while New York was seized during Anglo-Dutch wars several time, the definite change of hands was after the 2nd war, and a trade against Suriname. At the time it was considered a good deal for the Dutch. History might have proven them wrong :_)
[edit] Article | rewrite
The sheer number of sources is (beyond) impressive but the article could be better, I'll try to improve it a bit. Rex 16:24, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- Done.Rex 19:49, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Stripping all the references to "Catholics" and "Protestants" from an article about Dutch Americans is akin to removing the words "North" and "South" from an article on the American Civil War. The two groups had distinctly reasons for emigration, different cultures and different attitudes about life. Holland, Michigan is no Little Chute, Wisconsin, and visa versa. While the article needed a re-write, the current version it lost some soul. Jhuiting 19:41, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
- Considering the article as it was, all the remarks on religious figures were unnecesary details and made the artcle somewhat incomprehensible.Rex 19:59, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
“…religious figures were unnecesary(sic) details…” Either you’re trying to yank my chain or you’re an anti-religious zealot. Or both. In any case, I’m not rising to the bait. I am not a religious person. I am, however, quite aware of the role of Catholicism and Calvinism in the lives of the Dutch, before and after they immigrated. This is substantiated in all literature.
I'm not interested in an editing war. You’ve edited a lot of these articles; what are the procedures for consensus? Jhuiting 14:39, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
- Look, I'm not against adding the relegious information, but it has to be evened out by other data. Before the rewrite this article was like 80% religious information - 20@ other. Rex 15:18, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Now we have some common ground. I agree the original article was too religious. The Dutch Americans described in that article were not the Dutch Americans I grew up in in NE Wisconsin. Why the difference: they were Calvinist (Dutch Reform) and my people were Catholics. The differences are huge.
First, Catholics generally emigrated in groups – whole neighborhoods – usually led by a priest. The Dutch government was glad to get rid of them and they, second-class citizens for decades until the early 1800s, were glad to go. The Dutch Reformists, on the other hand, left on a more individual basis, and in line with their Calvinist beliefs, were going to prove themselves in America.
Predictably, the Dutch American towns, Catholic and Calvinist, were different. The Catholic drank, danced, played cards, focused on farming, listened to the priest. Relative to the Calvinists, they were probably not as financially set. And didn’t strive to be. The result: St Norbert College (liberal liberal arts), Kermis (with beer and dancing), and a live and let live attitude. Little Chute, the epicenter, can't quite get the Dutch tourism thing going. But it probably has a dozen bars and is a fun place to go.
The Calvinist were just the opposite. Hard working and striving for success, they tended to do better, focus on advancement and education and advancing the Church. No drinking, cards or dancing. The result is many more colleges (Calvin College for example), better run towns with active tourism, no bars, tulip festivals… Plus a couple of Dutch Presidents.
The Dutch American communities, both Catholic and Calvinist, had/have many similar qualities: single nationality dominating the town, thrifty (more honestly cheap as hell – I know being one), focus on religion, neat clean, independent, etc. They are all assimilating at a rapid rate.
In sum, the difference in religion played a large part in the town's characters. Catholic are fun, Calvists are driven. I know this is a lot of POV. Taking the 80% to 0%, however, in my opinion missed the mark. I'll try to add some documented examples when I have time. Jhuiting 00:06, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
I look forward to them. I understand you are a Dutch American yourself? Might I ask what you last name is? Rex 14:40, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
