Talk:Eurabia
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
[edit] Older comments without header
If that first weblink is as good as we can get in NPOV, that would indicate that the whole concept is very ideological (which it seemed to me anyway at first glance) and therefore should be clearly marked as such. Jakob Stevo 11:38, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
- Me - I'd be delighted to see this article on VfD. But short of that, what kind of "clear marking" do you suggest? Is this even a term which has been coined in more than the two sources linked to?
- Essentially the tone of the piece here suggests that immigration - and specifically immigration of peoples with other cultures - is a "bad thing". It is implying that Europe should not have "United in diversity" as its motto.
- It really sounds like xenophobistic rubbish. Not to mention that the concept is nonsense anyways!
- Zoney 08:27, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
-
- It's my opinion too that the concept is nonsense, but if it is in use within neo-conservative circles, which I can't judge, than we should have it here. "Clear marking" would mean to start it with "The term Eurabia is used within a Neo-Conservative, often xenophobic, context to support the idea that..." or something of the like. But it's fine by me if you put in on VfD, and by the way, it gave me headache to read Eurabia. Jakob Stevo 13:42, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
Another "interesting" link I found: [1] Nice quote: "Now that ... Osama bin Laden has effectively become the Spanish Foreign Minister..." (referring to the election victory of Zapatero) Jakob Stevo 15:04, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
Huh. Anti-French, Anti-Muslim, Anti-Arabic, and Anti-European Union. I wonder why I haven't heard this term more often in the US?
Would Jakob Stevo like to explain his non-ideological approach? That would be quite interesting. I removed the parenthetical clause about bat-yeor being a "self confessed islamaphobe". Firstly I'm pretty sure that she has not admitted to having an irational fear.What, so she wrote a book warning of the tremendous threat of Islam to European civilisation and the freedom of the whole world and then said in her next breath that her concern over these things is wholly irational? Words like islamophobe are verbal smoke bombs used by people who feel lacking more substantial means of defending their 'ideology'.
[edit] Jvb alias Johan Van Vlaams's blog on Wikipedia
... moved HERE for those who are interested, as it does not belong to the article discussion pages themselves. --FvdP 20:36, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Such as already mentioned before, I won’t do any declarations about the possible link between Johan Van Vlaams and me.
- The removed texts are about the actual situation in the Netherlands and Belgium. Very revealing. For the die-hards who want to understand why Mr. Politico-Correct deletes (censors) my text: see at Flemish Interest, the discussion page included.
- BTW, I am no member of that party.
- --Jvb Jan 26, 2005
[edit] highly POV copyright violations
whoever keeps posting this text needs to stop:
- The article from which it is cut-and-pasted is copyrighted and is not available under the terms of the GFDL, so we cannot simply reproduce it here. Period.
- Even if it were licensed appropriately, it is highly POV and is thus not suitable for a Wikipedia article.
—Charles P. (Mirv) 15:28, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Merge with Eurabia: The Euro-Arab Axis
===>Clearly overlapping I just don't know which one should be the redirect... Probably the book title. Justin (koavf) 03:51, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] It is not a POV
Since the work of the author cited Bat Ye'or is based on solid ground, that is on publications of the European Union and othe governenmental entities, on top level meeting, it seems to me that is is actually history.
If there would be a merge, "Eurabia" should stay as the main title.
- The ground may be solid, yet the constructions on top of it be biased and unfactual. --FvdP 22:42, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] A few suggested cross references
This article needs cross references to e.g. The Bavarian Illuminati, The Bilderberg Conference, The Trilateral Commission and Black Helicopters. Did I forget anything?
- the reptilian humanoids? —Charles P._(Mirv) 00:20, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
-
- How funny you are! The difference is of course, that the article is based on fact not fiction, as are the mentioned organisations.
[edit] The origins of the term Eurabia
As summarized yesterday in The Fallaci Code by Brendan Bernhard ([2]): "In other words, Europe will be conquered by being turned into “Eurabia,” which is what Fallaci believes it is well on the way to becoming. Leaning heavily on the researches of Bat Ye’or, author of Eurabia: The Euro-Arab Axis, Fallaci recounts in fascinating detail the actual origin of the word “Eurabia,” which has now entered the popular lexicon. Its first known use, it turns out, was in the mid-1970s, when a journal of that name was printed in Paris (naturally), written in French (naturally), and edited by one Lucien Bitterlin, then president of the Association of Franco-Arab Solidarity and currently the Chairman of the French-Syrian Friendship Association. Eurabia (price, five francs) was jointly published by Middle East International (London), France-Pays Arabes (Paris), the Groupe d’Etudes sur le Moyen-Orient (Geneva) and the European Coordinating Committee of the Associations for Friendship with the Arab World, which Fallaci describes as an arm of what was then the European Economic Community, now the European Union. These entities, Fallaci says, not mincing her words, were the official perpetrators “of the biggest conspiracy that modern history has created,” and Eurabia was their house organ." Larvatus 13:34, 16 March 2006 (UTC)larvatus
[edit] Entry reads like a book review
Definitely lacks NPOV, though not conspicuously so. It almost seems to be lifted from an Amazon Review or the back cover of a book (look at the Further Reading section... It could very well be the back cover of several of those books.)
[edit] Blatant POV
About half of this article is simply direct quotes from Bat Ye'or. There is hardly any attempt at showing the other side of the story. Ironically the article on Bat Ye'or is much more balanced. Tyronen 17:16, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
- I agree. The criticism section should be lengthened and the rest shortened. Clearly it describes the ideas of the book, but come on these are some pretty controversial and anti-muslim ideas, I would like to see the Protocols of the Elders of Zion article given this kind of generous treatment. Dan Carkner 04:38, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
-
- There's no comparison. The Protocols is a forged document. This is an academic study, and even if it was just a book it would be ok too. The Protocols is not a book, it's an imaginary protocol. Just because the conclusions of this study are not pro Arabic doesn't mean it's comparable. It's just like one would say that Ilan Pappe's works are similar to the Protocols. Just because the conclusion is one sided it doesn't mean that. You can have a criticism section for both Ilan Pappe on one hand and this on the other hand. Amoruso 04:58, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Fact and fiction on the terms origins
For a journal with such a monumental impact on world history, Eurabia has left very little trace. I could only find one library listing in French online. I found no online evidence for Lucien Bitterlin's editorship. I found a source where Bat Ye'or states her claims on who edited it, but without sources for the international co-editorship. I see nothing which indicates this journal was influential or had a major readership. Bat Ye'or seems to have borrowed the catchy title to describe something else, primarily the Euro-Arab Dialogue. What I did learn is that there are hundreds of websites copying faulty information from each other on this issue, such as Bitterlins misspelt name.Paul111 19:23, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Lucien Bitterlin
In the absence of any source for Bitterlin's editorship of Eurabia I suggest this information be deleted.Paul111 10:45, 17 October 2006 (UTC) Deleted, can be re-inserted if source available.Paul111 10:14, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Fallaci and EEC sponsorship of Eurabia
I can not find the orignal source online, where Fallaci says that Eurabia (the journal) and the Comité européen de coordination des associations d’amitié avec le monde Arabe were sponsored by the European Economic Community. It sounds like something that Fallaci would say, but that is not sufficient reason to include it here, a source is needed. Equally, it is possible the Committe did indeed receive EEC subsidy, but that too needs a source.Paul111 10:45, 17 October 2006 (UTC) Deleted, can be re-inserted if source available.Paul111 10:15, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Comité européen de coordination des associations d’amitié avec le monde arabe
Apart from one reference to its publication in an archive list, Google has no reference to the existence of this organisation, alleged publisher of Eurabia (the journal). All other references to it are from sites quoting Bat Ye'or, including Wikipedia mirrors. Since she apparently got the location and name of the GREMMO wrong - see article - this may be another mistake.Paul111 14:47, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Removal of Caroline Fourest from list
A priori it would make sense to inclue Fourest in the list of intellectuals under Degree of support for the theory. After all, she authored an article entitled The War for Eurabia and has been active in denouncing fundamentalist Islam. Yet this article does not discuss "Eurabia", nor even use this term. Instead, it deals with millitant islamist networks based in Geneva and London. Furthermore, Fourest says that she did not choose the article's title (which she did not translate into English herself).
- "As for the title, I chose neither it nor the illustration. I discovered it at the newsstand and it was too late to rectify matters"[3]
(As a side note, in the newspaper business, headlines are often not chosen by those who write the articles)
Fourest's line is basically the following: religious fundamentalists who hold sexist, homophobic, racist or anti-Semitic views are a threat to liberal societies. She's attacked the National Front, fundamentalist Catholic opposition to civil unions, etc. She sees Islamic fundamentalism as being currently more dangerous than Jewish or Christian fundamentalism, but "this has nothing to do with the religion, but rather with [islamic fundamentalism's] instrumentalisation of the religion". (Tirs croisés, p 514)
Another telling quote:
- At the risk of disappointing those who would like to believe in a special barbarism in Islam, the Quran has nothing to do with Muslim countries' being behind in terms of democracy and secularism.(ibid. p404, or 514 in paperback)
So even if it was understandable to include her in the list, a reading of either her latest book la tentation obscurantiste the article on her on FR will show that she does not belong in this litany of names. --Zantastik talk 00:57, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
- From the WSJ article it seems that she does support many of the ideas of the Eurabia theory, and the French Wikipedia article and its sources confirm this too. However she is not as notable as e.g Ayaan Hirsi Ali so a dispute is pointless.Paul111 10:38, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
- I disagree. In the WSJ Fourest did not write, and has not written elsewhere about "a dystopian scenario where Europe merges with the Islamic world, and the alleged process of political and cultural Islamisation of Europe" or anything like it. In the WSJ, she attacked islamic fundamentalism, which she sees as being seperate from Islam per se. Yet Fourest has attacked Christian fundamentalism even more than she has attacked Islamism. After all, you don't write a book like Les anti-PACS. Ou la dernière croisade homophobe if you're just interested in attacking Islamic fundamentalism -- opposition to the PACS was right-wing and Catholic. And as a member of the editorial team of Charlie Hebdo's Charlie blasphème -- a scathing attack against Jewish, Christian and Islamic fundamentalism -- she certainly didn't seem too interested in singling out the last group. You say that FR and the WSJ article have her supporting the Eurabia thesis. Yet you cite nothing to support your claim or to refute my arguments. Furthermore, Fourest is very notable, as she won the French Assemblée nationale's book award, the youngest person ever to do so. And her book was the subject of a debate in several of the most important organs of the French press (Le Point, Le Monde, Le Nouvel Obs). --Zantastik talk 21:06, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
- Fourests's idea that Tariq Ramadan is out to Islamise Europe (which may be correct) is the main reason to put her in the Eurabia camp. She does not see that as a utopia either.Paul111 11:04, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
- Fourest indeed believes that [[Tariq is a stealthy and clever pusher of Islamism. This much is indeed true. Nor does she see anything utopian about religious fundamentalism, Islamic or otherwise. Yet when she spends so much time attacking religious fundamentalists of all stripes and doesn't worry out loud about Europe becoming an Islamic theocracy, and has left-wing views on immigration and is, like a good feminist, hardly preocupied with birth rates, I think calling her a "eurabist" is just off the mark. She's a general opponent of fundamentalism, and unlike Bat Ye'or, Pipes, or Spencer (who are on the right, while Fourest is left-wing), she does not Islam, as opposed to Islamism, as being any better or worse than any other religion. --Zantastik talk 19:14, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Citation-needed tag
Apparently this refers to Caroline Fourest, but since her name has been removed anyway, why is a source needed? If it applies to anyone else on the list, please say so, otherwise it should be removed.Paul111 10:38, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
- The citation tags are for the other figures who are still cited in the list. --Zantastik talk 21:06, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
What sources, if the works of for instance Daniel Pipes and Robert Spencer are not sufficient? I understand from your comments on Caroline Fourest, that you don't believe that many people advocate the Eurabia thesis - the rest are presumably only opposed to terrorism. But the whole point about the Eurabia theory (and its popularity) is that it rejects this official line "Islam is a religion of peace, it is being misused by a murderous minority". If you want this article to say that the Eurabia idea has no supporters except Bat Ye'or, then it would be distorted and inaccurate. Please clarify whether you do indeed want the list of 'supporters' removed.Paul111 10:56, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
- Ah, I should have been more clear. I do think Pipes and Spencer are "eurabists". It's just that it'd be nice to have a citation pointing to a quote by each of them backing this up. WP:V, and all. But I'm not contesting their being part of the list, and as you say, claiming that Bat Ye'or is the only supporter of this idea would be distorted and inaccurate. --Zantastik talk 19:14, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] More context needed
It should be much more obvious that this theory is a/absurd b/very marginal in the european public debate. Anyone interested in contextualizing this absurdity might begin with this pewresearch page http://pewresearch.org/obdeck/?ObDeckID=50 which shows among many pan-european poll results that the european muslims are in their majority "concerned about the declining importance of religion among their co-religionists"... It might be interesting to remark that while 77% of the general US public has a favourable view of the jews, 86% of the french muslims have judeophile feelings...
