Template talk:European Americans

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Contents 1 Criterion for inclusion? 2 Turkey? 3 Serbian-American 4 Luxembourg or Luxembourgian-Americans? 5 Jewish American and Turkish American 6 Geographic subdivision 7 Amish and Pennsylvania Dutch 8 Breton Americans

[edit] Criterion for inclusion?

Should British American be included in this template? According to the page 1 million American recorded themselves in the 2000 census as British American, which is a significant number, although smaller than many other groups.

I must admit that as a European I *really* don't understand why some Americans choose to use these labels. Okay, I can understand for first generation immigrants, or maybe even second; but surely after like the third generation you have many "ethnicities" in your makeup. My grandfather is German, but I don't go around calling myself 'German British' or 'German English British'. His grandmother was (likely) Polish, but does that make me Polish-German-English-British? If I add in all the other parts of my makeup then describing my "ethnicity" would become a small essay of itself. Surely everyone is American, without the need for qualifiers to mark oneself as distinct? --Neo 20:23, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

The criteria for inclusion is the same criteria as for anything else in Wikipedia. A reputable source must refer to the person as "X-American" or "X". Not that their grandfather was X, but the person themselves. This indeed helps weed out those with distant ancestry Mad Jack 07:18, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm thinking that the US Census Bureau is a reputable source, and they say that there are 1m self-identified British Americans. Surely, this is a no-brainer. Bastin 13:36, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, Neo, if this is for self-identification, you needn't worry. Nothing is being said that wouldn't follow your own belief on this matter. Michael 06:36, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Unless the ethnic group can be found in EUROPE (i.e. Jews, Basques, or Faroeses) do not add them to this template, if you feel the that a group should be added refer to the European American page and see if the group in which you want to add can be found on the map OR if not found on the map the group is located within Europe. Ethnic groups within the United States should be added to an American Ethnic group template (if there is one). --Joebengo 02:27, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Turkey?

Are those from Turkey actually classified as European? This is often in dispute. Michael 06:37, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't know, but I still don't see why Jewish Americans isn't an appropriate cat here. A large majority of American Jews are distinctly European American in the same sense that everyone else listed here is - even Sephards. Just because not every single American Jew is European does not mean that should not be here. Some people who are "Irish Americans" or "German Americans" may have most recently come from an African or Caribbean country, or even from a South American one, yet they still would classify themselves as Irish Americans. Should I then remove the Irish and German cat from the table? Mad Jack 06:40, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

You'd have to qualify it as an ethnic group. Yes, I agree that it is one, but is this template to be based on a national or ethnic standpoint? Michael 06:44, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Well Basque isn't a country, and if we had an article on Gypsy Americans I would say we include it, so it should be based on both. But someone brought up the interesting idea that Jewish Americans be included in European, Asian, and a few other templates because there are large Jewish communities all over the world, so I don't see why we don't just do that. Mad Jack 06:45, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Okay, well, Turkey is defined as Eurasian, so I presume that keeping it here would be fine. It appears to be in a situation similar to that of Russia. Michael 06:46, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Then, is there a reason not to include it as such, Jack? Michael 06:47, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Reason not to include what as what? :) Mad Jack 06:48, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

That was in response to your post about the Jewish inclusions. Michael 06:52, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

No, no reason that I can see, we should include it in almost all of the templates Mad Jack 06:53, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but do not over-use it... Michael 06:55, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Clearly Mad Jack 06:57, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Obviously, the overwhelming majority of American Jews are of European ancestry. It would be grossly misleading to exclude them from this template for the sake of the small minority of Jews from India or Arab countries.--Runcorn 18:18, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

If that is included (I think it should be), it's possible that others will try to have other religious groups included, which could be problematic, opening the door for a plethora of disputes. Michael 20:45, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

It's a bit dubious to say that we shouldn't do the right thing because it's possible that others will try to do something which could be problematic.--Runcorn 21:02, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

No, I agree it should be done. However, I wonder whether this will be used as an excuse in the future to include other religious groups which may truly have their roots in other areas of the world. We need to establish some sort of official qualification factors here. Michael 21:04, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Ah, but there is a clear difference. "Other religious groups" are not, in fact, ethnic groups and have never claimed to be. Jews/Ashkenazis/Sephards unquestionably are, so there is a strong difference. Mad Jack 04:54, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

We don't have articles on Ashkenazi or Sephardic Jews-just one generic article on all Jewish-Americans. Michael 04:59, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Well you get the point. No one can claim any other religion is an ethnicity. Mad Jack 05:06, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Ah, but that hasn't stopped people in the past...They may add a Taoist-Americans link to the list, claiming there are some Taoists in Europe. I agree with you about including the Jewish people, but at the same time, it is something that applies to multiple continents (its origins were not even in Europe). Michael 05:11, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Well the words Sephardic and Ashkenazi usually directly refer to European countries. And since these are the majority of American Jews... Mad Jack 05:13, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

But not all of them...That's where the problem may lie. I'm just stating arguments that could be used against inclusion. I do agree, however, that Jewish-Americans are vastly of European descent. Michael 05:21, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't find these arguments terribly convincing. Nobody will claim that more than a small minority of Taoists are from Europe. Actually, in English law Sikhs are regarded as an ethnic group, but of course they are Indians. If someone comes and argues that any other group should be included, we can argue that case on its merits.--Newport 12:32, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe those arguments, either, though they could very well be risen. Standards need to be established so as to limit and permit for such. Michael 23:27, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Serbian-American

If someone is qualified in this field, it might be nice to also include Serbian-American in the list, since we do have a category for Serbian-Americans and all. Michael 05:27, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Anyone? Michael 22:36, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Luxembourg or Luxembourgian-Americans?

It appears that "Luxembourg-American" is actually more common. Any ideas? Michael 22:37, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

The more important question is... was Loretta Young really "Luxembourgian"? Really? She is listed but this seems very weird... Mad Jack 01:57, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I've never heard that. Weird... Michael 02:12, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Although I am responsible for the article currently being at 'Luxembourg American', I'd rather it were at 'Luxembourgian American'; not only does the latter fit into the scheme, but it avoids making it seem as though 'Luxembourg' is the adjective (which it isn't, and really p***es me off). However, when the only website devoted to Americans of Luxembourgian descent calls them 'Luxembourg Americans', I can't see how any other form can be adopted.

Loretta Young is Luxembourgian; see [1] and [2]. Bastin 08:51, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I've seen those sources on Young, but I'm trying to figure out "how" Luxembourgian she is. Obviously she's not 100%. Was it one of her parents, a grandparent? Mad Jack 17:08, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

To ascertain the answer, I've corresponded with Joan Wester Anderson, who is a Luxembourg American biographer (and acquaintance) of Loretta Young. She couldn't remember Young having talked of herself as being Luxembourgian, but couldn't be sure. Kindly, Mrs Wester Anderson contacted Loretta Young's son, Chris. Although he doesn't know of her ancestry, he did say that Young's maternal grandfather's name was 'Royale' (which, presumably, he changed). Therefore, if it is true that Young was a Luxembourger, it's probable that her grandfather was the closest Luxembourg-born relation. Bastin 12:32, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jewish American and Turkish American

Firstly being of Jewish origins what does this mean? You can hardly include Jewish Americans when this encompasses Israel which is not a European country (even if it did sneak its way into the Eurovision Song Contest), therefore you need to think in terms of what the Jewish means, is this in the same manner as Romano Europeans? if we are referring simply to the religious background it does not constitute its own category, we may as well add Catholic Americans and Lutheran Americans then, Jewish Europeans are Jews by religion not race. As for Turkey, it is not recognised by the EU or the European Community as a European country, only a small percentage of the country is jutting into the "Europe" part, the rest is completely in Asia. Turkey should not be added into Europe as they are not a European country. Cyprus however is. Also I do believe you missed out Andorra, Slovakia, Slovenia, and Malta which are all part of Europe. Piecraft 01:36, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Geographic subdivision

If geographic subdivision is used, it ought to conform to an objective externally-evalutated system. The one that I have applied to prevent further degeneration of the template is that used by the United Nations. In my edit summary, I gave a link to the Image:United Nations geographical subregions.png, which clearly denotes the subregions used by the UN. Bastin 11:15, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Amish and Pennsylvania Dutch

I really belive that one or both articles should be included in teh template because most likely, (about 90%), have ancestors that orignated in Germany.--23prootie 03:16, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

The European American article has this for a heading:

"A European American, or a Euro-American, is a person who resides in the United States and is either the descendant of European immigrants or from Europe him or herself."

So its valid to include them.--23prootie 03:26, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

If they are from Rhine, why can't they be discussed under Germany?? If we make an entry for every single region of Europe there will not be an end. Why not Parisian Americans, Lomdardian Americans etc??? If not, the template will become an article on to itself.. Baristarim 03:30, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

• Because they're Americans that's why. Its obvious. And unlike Parisian Americans, Lomdardian Americans etc... They have a real history in the United States. --23prootie 03:37, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I am still not getting it. If they are originally from a region in Germany (and Germans anyways - if they belonged to a different ethnicity I could understand), wouldn't it make sense to include them under German-Americans?? Nobody said that they were not Americans, but the question is simplicity as well. In fact, come to think of it, I still don't understand why Jewish Americans have been included in there. Tribe of Israel is not from Europe, and for those Jews who immigrated from Europe, they can be discussed under their respective country articles.. Puzzling this template is :) Baristarim 03:42, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Most importantly, Jewish people do not claim to be originally from Europe for the most part. There are German Jews etc, but in that case the primary concern that trumps to make them European is the fact that they are from Germany, not that they are Jewish.

I also agree with the fact that Amish et al have mutated to ethnic groups in the US. They were not as such when they had immigrated. Their original ethnic origins can be covered in "German-American" etc articles.. Baristarim 03:45, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Breton Americans

While I understand that Breton Americans are an ethnic celtic group, I don't believe that a person of Breton descent in America would say they are "Breton" instead of just French American. Unlike the Basques in Spain people from Brittany would rarely define themselves as a seperate "ethnicity" than just French. If I am wrong then please feel free to correct me. Anyone is welcome to put their input in and let me know how you feel about this issue, otherwise if no one (besides the person who put Bretons onto the template) disagrees then I will remove Britons from the list in 2 weeks.--Joebengo 22:19, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

This debate should really be held on the talk page for that article, rather than here. So long as there is an article on Breton Americans, there ought to be a link. However, it should be given as a subdivision of French Americans to reflect the fact that all Breton Americans are French Americans by definition (similarly English/Scots-Irish/Scottish/Welsh Americans being British Americans and Sicilian Americans being Italian Americans). Basques, sadly, set a precedent in that they don't belong necessarily to either the French or Spanish American categories. This, though, should be stressed as an exceptional case on that sole basis.

If the debate must be had here, I'll declare that I have reservations about the term as long as it has no references. The creation of country-specific (i.e. sovereign state) articles is fine, since they are pretty much automatically above question (unless there is literally not a single Vatican American). Notwithstanding that, sub-national divisions are more of a problem; sub-national ancestry groups that don't cite sources (preferably the US Census Bureau) ought to be shot on sight. Bastin 23:01, 4 April 2007 (UTC)