Talk:English and British Queen Mothers

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Is this worthwhile as a separate page from Dowager Queens? For instance, we note that there was only one Lancastrian queen mother. This is true, but there was an additional Lancastrian dowager Queen, Queen Joan. john k 22:46, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Presumtive or presumptive - that's the question. Sorry, I'm a Wikipedian, but only in the German Version. Not here.

--Andrea1984 12:06, 07. Juni 2006 (CET)

The word is presumptive, never presumtive. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 18:42, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

The spelling was altered again, with edit comment "German Version: Presumtive". I can't believe that "Presumtive" is a German word, but even if it were, this is an article on the English Wikipedia about the British Royal Family.--Poetlister 17:15, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

There is an edit comment that a German book spells the word "presumtive". Is this a book in English written and published in Germany? If so, it is scarcely surprising that it contains a spelling error. No English or American dictionary that I have consulted contains this spelling. The same editor proposes omitting the passage containing the word. Why? It is relevant information.--Poetlister 22:55, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I had changed the sentences - about the Queen Mother, Sophia of Hannover (1630-1714) - without the word presumtive. Is this allright ?

Yes, presumtive is a German Word. I read it in many German books about Royal Familys, not only about the Royals in Great Britain.

--Andrea1984 14:43, 02. November 2006 (CET)

The point is that the word is "presumptive," not "presumtive". As far as I can tell, "presumtive" is not a German word. See Leo here and here. What in the world is going on here? john k 13:23, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Here is a German defination for the word presumtiv: "Das Adjektiv präsumtiv steht für mutmaßlich. Unter anderem bezeichnet präsumtiv das voraussichtliche Entwicklungsvermögen eines Keimteils."

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pr%C3%A4sumtiv

I take it from the German Wikipedia Version. Sorry, that the text is not translated in english. I speak and read this language, but not very good.

--Andrea1984 14:25, 02. November 2006 (CET)

Then maybe you shouldn't be trying to tell us how to spell our words. I don't know if "präsumtiv" is a word in German (it's not in Leo, which makes me dubious), but I do know that the word in English is "presumptive." What's the issue here? john k 13:52, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

It is a German word [1] and according to that reference the translation is presumptive. I fail to see how the existence of a German word "präsumtiv" means that we need to change the spelling of an English word.--20.138.246.89 14:18, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. john k 15:01, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

You know, präsumtiv is a German Word. And I unterstand, that it not existist in the english language. So I want to remove this word from the article, to stop the discussion.

--Andrea1984 16:21, 02. November 2006 (CET)

For god's sake stop this. "Presumptive" is an English word. You don't even speak English. Go away and stop messing with this article. john k 15:30, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Note that if you revert again you will have reverted four times, and will be blocked. john k 15:32, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I think, I speak english better than you German. I passed the A-Level with a C. That's a good mark.

I can revert, what I want. It's not forbidden in this version. But I think it's better, to change the "bad" word in another, to stop the discussion.

--Andrea1984 16:35, 02. November 2006 (CET)

What does German have to do with anything? Who cares how well I speak German? (not very well, but a little, is the answer, if you're interested) There is an English word "presumptive." Sophia was the "heiress presumptive" of England during the reign of Queen Anne. This is a perfectly usual English word. Where does German comes into it at all? Why are you insisting on removing a perfectly acceptable English word from this article? I have absolutely no idea what your issue is. There is no "discussion" here, except your strange crusade against the word "presumptive." This all makes no fucking sense whatsoever. john k 16:45, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I apologize for being a horrible person and using a very, very naughty word. john k 17:06, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Anyone in any doubt as to whether "presumptive" is an English word, can check a dictionary. "heir presumptive" is a set phrase with a specific meaning: and is defined here by that same dictionary Morwen - Talk 13:59, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Shouldn't it be Queens Mother

Isn't the main noun 'Queen', a former Queen Consort, nonetheless still a 'Queen' who is mother to the current Sovereign. 'Mother' seems to be the modifier, and Queen seems to be the noun. Eddo 18:26 , 7 December 2006 (UTC)

An interesting argument, but I think that we have to go by general usage. I can't find any example of the phrase "Queens mother" in this sense (as opposed to say a mother living in the borough of Queens, New York).--Poetlister 22:47, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Ooh! Oooh! Grammar nerd alert!

Poetlister is right. The construction Eddo appears to be thinking of is the one that produces such delights as "courts martial" & "mothers-in-law". "Mother" is the modifier, but it's a noun, not an adjective, and thus can create the plural as it stands, "Queen Mothers" (the only similar example I can think of is "lieutenant governors"). If the title was "Queen Maternal", it would be "Queens Maternal", but that would sound sillier than titles do normally. Pointless grammar lesson over, Parce out. --Parcequilfaut 03:10, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Pasted from Queen Mother discussion page in the hope of getting a response.

[edit] A Title?

If this (Queen Mother) is in fact a title, then it must befall automatically or be awarded. For example, Prince Charles, despite his birth, did not assume the title of Prince of Wales until his mother awarded it when he was about 9 or 10. (The investiture happened some years later.) Likewise, Princess Anne was not automatically called the Princess Royal upon the death of her great-aunt, the previous Princess Royal.

I have not read the reference to the Duchess of Kent (Victoria's mother) claiming the title Queen Mother. I, too, was under the impression that the name was used for Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother in order to distinguish her from her daughter, Queen Elizabeth II.

There is, in the article, Queen Mother a list of Queens who, it is claimed, used the title Queen Mother. As none of these queens is English, then, if this is indeed the case, every one of them used a non-English variant of the name. Whatever they called themselves, it was not "Queen Mother". So the titles in their original languages ought to be shown.

Were these titles in fact Queen Mother in the English sense, implying wife of a deceased reigning monarch whose child has ascended the throne (if in fact this is the correct definition)? Or is the title actually closer in meaning to "King's mother" or "Reigning Queen's mother"?

(I make the distinction here because the wife of a King is titled "Queen" but the husband of a reigning Queen is not titled "King". eg Prince Albert of Saxe-Coburg (Victoria's husband) and Prince Philip of Greece (Elizabeth II's husband). In this case both were princes in their own right.)

If the "title" Queen Mother exists in England, then what I want to know is this- who, if anybody, before the mother of the present queen, actually used the title? If the title exists, then there were three claimants to it, within the 20th century. Queen Alexandra upon the death of her husband Edward VII and the succession of George V, Queen Mary upon the death of her husband George V and accession of her son Edward VIII and subsequent accession of George VI and Queen Elizabeth upon the death of her husband George VI and accession of her daughter Elizabeth II. The fly in the ointment here is that Queen Mary was alive at the time that her son George VI died. Had she been the Queen Mother (which by present definition, she was) then her daughter-in-law Queen Elizabeth could not be the Queen Mother.

My understanding of this situation is that Queen Mary was generally referred to, in the reign of her sons, as Queen Mary. Formally, she was the Dowager Queen. Elizabeth (Queen Mother) would also have been a Dowager Queen. This is not an hereditary title and there is no reason why there cannot be any number of dowager queens simultaneously. However, it was necessary to distinguish between Queen Mary, the Dowager Queen; Queen Elizabeth, the Dowager Queen and Queen Elizabeth. So Queen Elizabeth (wife of the late George VI) was called the Queen Mother. The title was probably subject to a Royal Decree like the decrees which made Charles the Prince of Wales and Anne the Princess Royal.

This article reads, to me, like unsubstantiated extension of a single fact- that the Mother of the present Queen of England was known as the Queen Mother. If any other part of this article is factual, then the things that need citing are:-

1. the decree, statement or news report of such a statement that made Queen Elizabeth II's mother the Queen Mother.
2. evidence that the title existed or was in common parlance in England before that date (which is the implication of this article).
3. evidence as to whether the title is simply honorary like "Dowager Queen" or whether it must be awarded.
4. evidence that the Duchess of Kent (Victoria's mother) actually claimed the title "Queen Mother". My suspicion is that she did not claim the title of Queen Mother but did claim the title of "Dowager Queen". This was a title which did indeed exist and would make sense of the un-cited information on this page.
5. evidence as to what all the listed so-called "Queen Mothers" from non-English-speaking countries were actually called and precisely what the term implied in the language of the people who called them by that name.

NOTE: I have never read of this title applied to any English Queen except Elizabeth, Queen Consort of George VI upon the accession of her daughter.

--Amandajm 05:25, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

placed here--Amandajm 09:31, 8 January 2007 (UTC)