Talk:Serpent (symbolism)
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[edit] Cleanup needed
This page is a mess. The sections do not make sense. The New Testament is just as much Mythology as the other religions mentioned. The "Other Symbolic Uses" are also so connected with Mythology that is hardly makes sense to separate them. Since all serpent symbolism is mythological having a Mythology section is redundant.
The serpent occurs in so many mythologies worldwide and it's meaning has quite some overlap in the various cultures. The examples need some kind of structure (geographically and/or chronological) that would clarify that overlap. Now they are now just thrown in together in a jumble. It would be good to start the page with a section containing a general description of what serpents represent, a kind of structuralist distillation (a la Joseph Campbell) of the various mythologies.
Overall this article could do with a less Judaeo-Christian POV since the Genesis story is a variation of earlier Serpent myths, most notably Sumerian. --Tchoutoye 14:33, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Ok I've made a beginning with the cleanup. I've shortened the Christian sections slightly. Not because I oppose the content but because there was a lot of redundancy due to doubling of content. --Tchoutoye 20:28, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Guinea worms
Though we all know about Guinea worms, I don't know where to begin to explain how this connection is impossible among early cultures never exposed to tropical Guinea worms. The misapplication of Hermes' cadeuceus to medicine is an interesting story in itself: see the article's Links:
- "The symbols entwining the staff of caduceus are not serpents. they are a type of parasite namely the guinea worm. How these worms and the staff came together is the product of the cure applied by the mesapothemians to these worms.
- In order to remove the worm from the body, it is coiled around a staff. More information can be found under this link:
- http://www.uic.edu/classes/osci/osci590/3_2SymbolsSnakesHealing.htm
Although (some) ancient people didn't make much of a distinction between snakes and worms it would be nonsense to state that the symbols on the caduceus are not serpents but guinea worms. --Tchoutoye 14:53, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Serpent's information inaccurate?
I removed these two statements from the Hebrew Bible section: "And every word the Serpent spoke was in fact true. His information may be illicit, but it is not inaccurate." Genesis 3:2-4 says (NIV translation)
- '2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' " 4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."'
According to the text, their eyes were indeed opened after eating; however, the serpent also said "you will not surely die," which was a lie, as they did die after eating it (though their death was not immediate, it was certainly a consequence of eating the fruit). (WikiLad)
- Patently a stretch. For God has said "In that day you will surely die." The Serpent knows better, and correctly informs Eve. Let us stick to the text, and be as frank as we are capable: this is not the Biblepedia. --Wetman 04:25, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
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- The traditional judeo-christian religious interpretation of this passage sees this as a spiritual death that occurs immidiately, according to "God: A biography" by Jack Miles, 1995, p.32 of hardcover edition. To maintain NPOV standards, either remove this statement, or add a note regarding religous interpretation citing a source that is public domain. -Jadorno 06:28, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
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- Yet the serpent's statement is much broader, failing to narrow it to death in the same day. Notice the context, in that Eve also fails to mention this same-day clause. I don't quite understand your 'Biblepedia' comment: if there's a statement in Wikipedia that's questionable based on the information surrounding a person or character, isn't it logical to search the source to clarify? The statement in question happens to have significant implications regarding the serpent's character. --WikiLad 03:50, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
- I agree with Wetman. God says "In that day you will surely die," yet Adam lives for another 930 years! Wikilad is incorrect when he says "though their death was not immediate, it was certainly a consequence of eating the fruit," because they weren't supposed to eat the fruit from the tree of life, which would have made them immortal like God. So, it isn't as if they were originally immortal and their eventual death is a consequence of eating the forbidden fruit. Eating the fruit from the Tree of Life would have been the only way for them to live forever, and it was prohibited. Winick88
[edit] serpent website unappropriate
the "serpent website" link seems unappropriate here (it refers to a music instrument, not to symbolism) — MFH:Talk 00:49, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] serpent in healing
I remember being told that the medical symbol of a snake wrapped around a stick actually comes from the piece in the Hebrew bible where a 'snake on a stick' was used to heal people (actually mentioned in the article). Is their any truth in this?
- Likely so. See Numbers 21:8-9:
"8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. 9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived."
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- healing bronze serpent of Moses (John 3:14).
- Serpents were also used in the Temple of Asclepius in ancient Greece for healing. The Rod of Asclepius (a snake curled around a rod) was so employed.
- Today, the Rod of Asclepius is said to be the basis of the symbol you refer to: "Widely recognised uses include the logos of the World Health Organization, the Star of Life, and the American Medical Association." --- (Bob) Wikiklrsc 17:39, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
