Talk:T-55

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Removed extremely biased and poorly researched section which failed to take into account the age of the tank, and the fact of how successful it was when it was new.

A reasonable response to the removed section might be:

Q. How well would you expect an unmodified 1950s era tank to perform against the most recent American hardware? A. Not well at all, I imagine the result would be 'unimpressive'.

Are you even remotely aware of the primary reason for the original development of 105mm DU ammunition by the US?

T-54 and T-55 tanks engountered by Israeli M-48 and M-60 tanks were found to be unpenetrated in upwards of 40% of instances in which APFSDS was fired at them. 105mm DU for the M-60 tank was introduced in response to the fact that (contrary to what this section suggested) the T-54 and T-55 series tanks continued to perform well in combat long past what was expected to be their reasonable operating lifespan.

Also contrary to what was suggested in the removed section (which contained little to no unbiased, non-inflammatory, or even useful information), The Iraqi Brigade commander's tanks (Enigma), which were often T-55, Type-59 or Type-69-II (the latter two are Chinese copies) equipped with massive applique of concrete is recorded in one instance as having survived 3 hits from Milan missiles. Incongruous to the T-55's normal behaviour, but no less telling about the potential of upgrades to the platform.

Hear, hear! The T-54 should be judged in its context: that of WW2. It's a design with armour and firepower superior to the King Tiger, but, with only half the weight of the German behemoth, still more mobile than the Panther. Quite impressive.

MWAK--217.122.44.226 06:04, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

---

I've changed the description of the T-54/55 as a "medium tank" to a "main battle tank", as that fits the tank better. "Medium tank" is more of a historical term than something that is used for modern tanks, as the distinction between heavy and medium tanks has all but disappeared.

--Martin Wisse 22:04, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Contents 1 Lateral stabilisation 2 T-80 is in service, not T-64 3 Type 69 4 Image:T-55 armyrecognition poland 004.jpg 5 95,000 6 Errors 7 James Bond 8 Comparison of guns 8.1 Perspective 8.2 Citations needed 9 Advantages and Limitations 10 Turret machine gun 11 Fume extractor

[edit] Lateral stabilisation

From memory, T54 and T55 used to be very similar. In my (albeit somewhat outdated) experience, the greatest difference between T54 and T55 was that the gun in T54 had only vertical gyro stabilization while in T55 it was stabilized both vertically and laterally. One unintended consequence of the lateral stabilzation was that, if one forgot to switch it off when going back on the road, the turret (and the gun) could end up pointing sideways thus collecting telegraph poles or anything else in that direction.

Can someone find a picture or diagram of this?

This? Wolfmankurd 17:08, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] T-80 is in service, not T-64

Someone wrongly said that the T-64 and T-72 were the main units, and the T-80 and T-90 in smaller numbers. Not true, Russia has about 4,000 T-80 tanks, and another 5,000+ T-72s, plus lots of T-62s which are mostly in reserve. Russia also has some 300 T-90s used in Siberia. 4,000 T-80s is hardly a small number, so I changed it. Plus, Russia doesn't even have T-64s. They were all given to fUSSR countries like Ukraine.

Is there a references with reasonably up-to-date figures? There are probably quite a few articles that could benefit from this info, e.g. Russian Army#Current Inventory. —Michael Z. 2006-07-27 19:43 Z

[edit] Type 69

The Type 69's service in Iraq could be mentioned here, but the detailed description really belongs in the article about the Type 69. —Michael Z. 2006-08-14 13:36 Z

[edit] Image:T-55 armyrecognition poland 004.jpg

The vehicle has that "dome" on the turret roof, so it must be T-54 ? Bukvoed 18:15, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 95,000

Does this figure include the Type 59 and 69, or the versions produced in Warsaw Pact countries? I had thought I had read elsewhere a much larger production number of "T-54/55 and variants," and was curious. I realize that production figures for the Type 69 should go in that article, but I thought it might be interesting to show these figures along with the T-55 to demonstrate just how unbelievably widespread this tank truly is.--Raulpascal 15:33, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

That would be very interesting. From memory, I think the 95,000 figure includes actual tanks produced in the Warsaw Pact, not other vehicles based on the hull, and not Chinese tanks.  —Michael Z. 2006-09-15 16:54 Z

Zaloga (2004) estimates the W-P production at about 76,000; a 95,000 estimate would have to include Chinese production. Zaloga only mentions a 9000 number for the initial Type 59. --MWAK 16:15, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Oops, sorry for improvising. —Michael Z. 2006-09-18 03:44 Z

The Military Channel and their show Top Ten Tanks and some other sources say that all together 95,000 T-54/55s were made. They are all Soviet made. And they showed a HUGE field with just 1000's of tanks lined up.(Wiki General 21:31, 19 September 2006 (UTC))

Soviet production certainly wasn't 95,000 :o). Zaloga (2004) gives a maximum estimate of about 54,750 and even that is probably a few thousand too high. The best solution would be to combine the Zaloga (2004) T-54 estimate of 24,750 with the Zaloga (1999) T-55 estimate of 27,500 for a total of about 52,000. We can be pretty sure about this for the simple reason we could check the Soviet and other WP 1988 holdings under the CFE-treaty. Indeed we can only account for about 65,000 WP vehicles, including exports. Maybe the deficit is standing on that field ;o).--MWAK 08:26, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Usally programs like the History Channel and The Military Channel are right. Otherwise it would not make sense to show the programs. And I would not doubt the 95,000 number, because the T-55 was designed to combat the Americans and all other Soviet threats during the Cold War. If the Cold War had ever gone hot, the T-55 would have rolled out onto the battlefield all over Europe. Because Soviet doctrine calls for large numbers of manpower and equiment to overpower the enemy. Eventully they took the T-62 as their top tank. But they continued to create large numbers of T-55's for export and such. In either case...the T-55 is the worlds most-produced tank in history anyway u cut it. Next would come the T-34 with 58,000 produced and 40,000 or so M4 Shermans.(Wiki General 09:42, 21 September 2006 (UTC))

I would always prefer figures from an academic book, or cited references from a popular book to figures from a television show. TV documentaries are made on tight deadlines and assign more importance to visual impact, while book references are double-checked (but even good books publish mistakes, and it's always good to confirm with independent sources).

Actually, according to our articles 84,070 T-34 tanks were built, plus 13,170 T-34-based guns, and about 50,000 Shermans, plus derivatives. But if only 65,000 T-54/55 tanks were built, this doesn't jibe with the common story that there were more built than T-34s. —Michael Z. 2006-09-21 15:11 Z

Well, most T-34 estimates limit themselves to the Soviet production before 1947, after which year data become real murky. The 95,000 number is from estimates including speculation about Chinese production, usually put at about 20,000, the minimum needed to make all units attain their organic strength plus the 50% materiel reserve you need to compensate for the poor reliability. And when I was young, the common story was that the T-34 had been the most-produced tank :o).--MWAK 17:00, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Info the on T-34 is wrong. The T-55 whether the number of 95,000 is right or not is regardless the most-produced tank EVER! The T-55 is seen in far more countries and in larger numbers then any other tank. Offical production numbers for the T-34 is said to be 58,000 or so. And I would take what the Military Channel said as true. Cause the show was fairly indepth. And sources for shows like that are usally right, otherwise they would not be educational. They had real/offical military specialists and such on the show Top Ten Tanks. They took the best tanks and compared them. The scales were measured on firepower, armor, mobility, fear factor and production. I forget how the exact list went but I think it was: M4 Sherman - 10, Merkava - 9, T-54/55 - 8, Challenger 1 - 7, Panzer mk4 - 6, Centurion - 5, WW1 Tank - 4, Tiger 1 - 3, M1 Abrams - 2, & the T-34 -1. Now while I would not overall take the list itself entirly serious. They did collect some very good footage for every tank and they put some very good detail into each tank and why they thought it was good and so. I saw some other tank lists on the net, and most of them did not even have the Tiger Tank. No tank list is accurate without the Tiger.(Wiki General 19:22, 21 September 2006 (UTC)) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Wiki General (talk • contribs) .

Production summary, from Zaloga (2004), T-54 and T-55 Main Battle Tanks 1944–2004

T-54 series (p 11)
 Soviet Union     24,750
 Warsaw Pact       5,465
 China (Type 59)   9,000+
 China (Type 69)       ?
 China (Type 79)     519 (originally called Type 69-III; p 38)
 China (Type 88)       ? (originally called Type 80 and Type 80-II)
 Total           ±40,000 (not counting associated specialized 
                          armored vehicles on the T-54 chassis)

T-55 (p 14–15)
 Soviet Union    ±30,000
 Poland           ±7,000
 Czechoslovakia    8,477 (3,377 T-55, 3,820 T-55A, 1,280 T-55AK1)
 Romania            ±400 (TR-580/TR-77)
 Total           ±45,877
 
Both T-54 and T-55
 Grand total     ±85,877

—Michael Z. 2006-10-04 03:53 Z

To further complete the figures above: the PLA's inventory of Type 69/79's according to the International Institute for Strategic Studies book series "The Military Balance", peaked at around 1,200 tanks in the year 2000. The January-May 2001 edition of Jane's Sentinel Security Assessment: China and Northeast Asia issue put this number much lower, at around 300. It is possible that IISS is counting both active and inactive vehicles, though this may not be the explanation as IISS does not sufficiently explain their figures. By 2002 that number had declined to around 150 Type 69s and 500 Type 79s. Further reductions by 2003 brought the number of Type 79s down to 300 tanks. Further you could count the Type 69-II's, the Thai Army's Type 69-II's, the twin 37-mm SPAAG, the twin 57-mm Type 80 SPAAG, the Type 84 Armored Vehicle Launch Bridge (AVLB) and the Type 653 Armored Recovery Vehicles that all are built on the chassis of the Type 69.

About 400-500 tanks of Type 88 and its variants (Type 80, Type 80-II, Type 88, Type 88B and Type 88A) were produced between 1981-1995. MoRsE 05:42, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Production summary, from Zaloga (2004), T-54 and T-55 Main Battle Tanks 1944–2004? - How can that list be from 1944 to 2004? The first T-54 did not appear untill 1949. Wiki General 01:45, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

That's the title of the book. The table above summarizes the production figures which are spread out in several pages of its text. The book deals with the development of the T-54 starting with its precursor, the transitional T-44 tank, which entered service in 1944 (the first T-54 actually entered service in 1947). —Michael Z. 2006-10-06 03:25 Z

[edit] Errors

There are many errors in this Article,look at the german Wiki.The secondary weapon was NOT a SMGT,it was the heavy PKT-Machinegun and so it goes on... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.174.32.15 (talk • contribs) .

[edit] James Bond

• A Russian T-55 tank was also driven by James Bond (Pierce Brosnan) in the 1995 Bond movie GoldenEye.

I've tried hard to decide that this is notable, but I don't really see how it is. A T-55 was made up to look like a T-80BV, and used in a chase scene in the movie. Fun scene, but viewers didn't know or care that it was a T-55. It teaches nothing about the T-55 tank. I'll remove it, but feel free to put forward an argument for retaining it that I haven't thought of. —Michael Z. 2006-10-29 23:32 Z

I don't think it was a T-55. The Russians were using T-72's from teh 70's and by the 90's T-80's were in use. Tourskin.

[edit] Comparison of guns

I don't know why people keep insisting that the 100mm D-10T main gun of the T-55 is superior to the main guns of the T-55's Western counterparts like the M-46/48 Patton series and the British Centurion. If people would use the very link from the T-55 re: the D-10T gun, they would find that the Wikipedia article on that gun states that the D-10T is inferior to the Tiger II's main gun. If people would investigate further and consult the gun penetration tables from wwiivehicles.com and compare the penetration performance of the American 90mm, the British 20 pdr, the German 88mm L/70, and the Soviet 100 mm D-10T, they would find that the D-10T is inferior to all the others. In fact, the 90mm American gun in wwiivehicles.com is an earlier version. By the time of the T-55, the American 90mm have been lengthened and become much more powerful.

The fact is, the main gun of the T-54/55 series when it first arrived was an obsolete relic of WWII. Its penetration is much less than that of its Western counterparts. On the other hand, the T-55s extremely thick front turret armor may be able to shrug off even the superior firepower of Western guns.

I will monitor this and continue keeping the information on the T-55's main gun accurate.

67.99.248.194 06:08, 15 December 2006 (UTC)Victor67.99.248.194 06:08, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Are there any performance figures which provide a better comparison? I notice that according to the tables at D-10 tank gun and KwK 43, the D-10 actually gets slightly better penetration with comparable ammunition, but the presumed angle of the target armour is different. The 20 pdr table values are for APDS, presumably much superior to the Soviet APHE shown. How do we know what the D-10's penetration is at 30° to compare to the M3's?—again, the two sets of figures are hard to compare, but with similar ammunition the Soviet gun's penetration shown is better.

Do you know anything about the the D-10TG and D-10T2S guns—their performance and when they entered service? —Michael Z. 2006-12-15 16:37 Z

Answered my own question after a bit of research: I'll add this info to the articles shortly. —Michael Z. 2006-12-15 21:07 Z

Unfortunately, direct comparison of armor penetration figures is often misleading. Different countries used different measurement methods; many figures were actually estimations based on other results; many of those estimates turned out to be unrealistic... etc. I'd suggest to avoid direct comparison of guns from different countries/periods if differences between their penetration figures with similar ammunition is not too big... say 10-15% or less. Bukvoed 17:27, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, the comparison of the D-10 to any of the other guns suffers from similar, hard-to-quantify differences: 0° vs 30° angle, APHE vs APDS ammunition, etc. Of course there even more factors than the ones you cite, like ammunition quality and availability, rate of fire, actual field performance, technical improvements of guns and ammunition, etc. Also, should guns be compared "fairly", based on similar ammunition, or in absolute terms, based on the best ammunition available. It would be better to cite one or more experts who qualitatively compare the guns than to rely on any figures at all. Perhaps the significance of such comparisons with ordnance whose actual capabilities are subject to state secrets, propaganda and misinformation should be minimized, unless we can describe the circumstances of actual field tests (which can be done, in some cases). —Michael Z. 2006-12-15 20:35 Z

[edit] Perspective

Okay, I did a little research and added some information. I'll add some more about ammunition improvements to D-10 tank gun. Still no direct comparisons.

But it's not fair to make a straight comparison between the 36-tonne T-54's gun and that of the 70-tonne King Tiger, without mentioning that the 46-tonne, 122mm-armed IS-2 was in service since 1944. It should also be noted that the 52-tonne Centurion was heavier than any Soviet heavy tank. —Michael Z. 2006-12-15 21:42 Z

The fact is, the main gun of the King Tiger, which if you research it was first used in the 24 ton Nashorn tank destroyer first deployed successfully in the Battle of Kursk in 1943. One does not need a 70 ton tank to mount the 8.8 cm KwK 43 L/71. I will return the segment on the King Tiger's gun.

67.99.248.194 07:38, 16 December 2006 (UTC)Victor

This is ridiculous. Comparing apples to oranges. The Germans didn't manage to get this gun into a medium tank either, so what does this prove? We don't write that the Tiger II sucks because the ISU-152 had a better gun, or because the Soviets managed to build a 152-mm gun which could be pulled by a truck!. Please try to get some perspective. —Michael Z. 2006-12-16 08:47 Z

True. It seems rather pointless to compare the T-55 with the Nashorn. If you look up its characteristics , you'll find it was only a lightly armoured, open-topped gun platform, and had none of the capabilities of a tank. For a TD with equivalent performance, you should take the Jagdpanther that weighs 50 tonnes! Also, the T-55 and King Tiger are in a different class alltogether. The King tiger is a heavy tank and its Soviet equivalent would be the IS-2/IS-3/T-10M series not the T-55.Raoulduke47 13:50, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. Even so, a straight comparison of the IS2 to the King Tiger would be inadequate if it didn't point out that the Soviet heavy tank was in the same weight class as the German medium Panther. The success of Soviet tank designs was partly due to the imposition of very strict weight limits. They wouldn't even have considered building a seventy-tonner like the King Tiger—the 45-tonne Soviet heavy tanks were constantly on the verge of cancellation, and super-heavy tanks were considered completely impractical. —Michael Z. 2006-12-17 16:29 Z

[edit] Citations needed

• The post-WWII British Centurion Mk 3 carried a superior 20 pounder (84 mm) gun,...
• The D-10 also had slightly inferior armour penetration compared to the U.S. Pershing tank's 90mm M3 gun.

I'm still doubtful of these two statements. The 105-mm Royal Ordnance L7 was specifically developed in response to the T-54 tank, and mounted on the UK Centurion and US Patton tanks around 1959. Does anyone have sources comparing these other guns to the D-10?

I think Cuban T-54s faced South African Centurions (Olifants) in Angola. Does anyone know of a balanced account of their relative performance? —Michael Z. 2006-12-17 22:42 Z

I found some references to real-world capabilities. Zaloga (2004:40):

By the standards of the 1950s, the T-54 was an excellent tank, combining lethal firepower, excellent armor protection and good reliability in a tank that was lighter and smaller than comparable Western designs such as the British Centurion or the American M48 Patton. On the negative side, the T-54 was forced to rely on HEAT ammunition in tank engagements due to the lack of effective sub-caliber armor piercing ammunition until the 1960s, and this type of ammunition was not particularly accurate at long ranges when used with the T-54's simple fire control system.

In an older book, Cockburn (1983:127) writes:

Back in the 1960s, when the T-55 was the main Soviet battle tank, the U.S. Army insisted on the basis of engineering calculations derived from measuring covertly obtained sample tanks, that the T-55's 100-millimeter gun was quite powerful enough to knock holes in the U.S. M-48s; similarly, the Army claimed the American tanks could destroy the T-55 with the U.S. 90-millimeter weapon. When the two tanks finally confronted each other in the 1967 Middle East war, it transpired that neither of them had the wherewithal to punch holes in the other's frontal armor.

Back to Zaloga:

By the time of the 1973 October war, the T-54A and T-55 tanks ... already more than two decades old by this time, the T-55 was past its prime. The Israeli Centurions had been uparmed with the 105mm gun and the newer M60A1 offered better armor and firepower than the T-55. Yet the T-55 was far from obsolete, and with the newer sub-caliber ammunition, was capable of penetrating the thick turret armor of the Israeli tanks at two kilometers.

• Andrew Cockburn (1983). The Threat: Inside the Soviet Military Machine. New York: Random House. ISBN 0-394-52402-0.

Time to update the article. —Michael Z. 2006-12-18 04:12 Z

By the way, now this tank article cites real-world performance of tanks pitted against each other, rather than comparing disconnected laboratory statistics about their guns. I think this is an improvement, by an order of magnitude. —Michael Z. 2006-12-18 06:24 Z

[edit] Advantages and Limitations

In this website, http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/t-54.htm, are a great number of information re: the T-54/55 series. Of special interest are the sections on "capabilities" and "limitations". I will try to work on adding information to the Wiki article, however I may not be able to quickly complete this project. Perhaps other editors/researchers on Wiki would like to assist? 67.99.248.194 08:14, 16 December 2006 (UTC)Victor

Use such unreferenced web sources with caution, as some of it is clearly dated or only valid in a narrow context in this case. The M60 Patton tank which is compared was introduced 13 years later, a contemporary of the T-62 and later T-64. I am suspicious of the statement that external diesel fuel cells make the tank vulnerable. The statement that the T-55 is not airtight is obsolete, as of the adoption of the improved POV NBC-protection suite in 1963, I think. —Michael Z. 2006-12-17 21:36 Z

[edit] Turret machine gun

Hey, it say that the machine gun mounted on top of the turret is a DShK, but some pictures show a twin-barreled machine gun that doesn't look like a DShK. Can anyone identify what sort of machine gun that was? 24.250.1.196 19:58, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fume extractor

Is a fume extractor the same thing as a bore evacuator? If so, the link needs to be fixed, or a redirect added.