Talk:Genocide and ethnic conflict in Israel and Palestine
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Contents |
[edit] Separate Page
I've moved what we had on the genocide page to this page regarding Israel Palestine. For the structure of this page, I think we should have accusations post 1948 as they occured as opposed to grouped, which has accusing of POV and so on. For now though we got old info. Evolver of Borg 21:37, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Draft Article
Over the next month or so, I will be rewriting the article. The draft as I update can be found here. Do not edit this page. Feel free to make suggestions. Evolver of Borg 10:21, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
[edit] I added these elements of Israeli oppression
- Mass imprisonment and torture of Palestinians held by the Israeli military and police authorities without charge or trial.
- Frequent Israeli military incursions and attacks on unarmed Palestinian civilians and civilian population centers resulting in tens of thousands of deaths and injuries.
- Seizure of Palestinian land, denial of building permits and denial of access to water resources for agricultural and urban needs. --Alberuni 08:15, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
[edit] What a disappointment
The text "creation of the Israeli West Bank barrier, which have been denounced as illegal by the UN Security Council" is factually wrong: Security Council fails to adopt resolution on Israeli barrier. I have removed that and added the following text for Pal. supporters terminology: "Inversely, they prefer not to use the same terms for the transfer of Jewish population." ←Humus sapiens←Talk 00:54, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)
-
- I think you are right about the SC. The barrier has been denounced as illegal by the International Court of Justice (9 July 2004), because it violates Security Council resolutions, and the Court urged the Security Council to take action, but the Security Council itself did not do any denouncing, to the best of my knowledge. I am changing the text to replace SC with ICJ. Your last statement does not make any sense - what are you referring to? -- Simonides 01:01, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)
-
-
- I am referrring to the fact that they are not as concerned about making certain areas Judenrein, such as Hebron in 1929, or Jewish communities of the West Bank in 1949, or Sinai in 1978, or today's Sharon's Gaza disengagement plan. The Jewish community of Hebron lived there for about 3 millenia. According to Palestinian supporters, it is merely a "settlement" on a "Palestinian territory", and therefore must be destroyed. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 02:40, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)
-
[edit] "military occupied territories" editorial
Why was this editorial regarding the West Bank and Gaza inserted? Must every reference in every article that refers to the West Bank and Gaza be preceded by "military occupied territories", or does it have some special significance in this article? Jayjg 00:53, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Added details
I just added some details and quotes to the text. Evolver, I've noticed your note postfactum. Feel free to reuse/discuss. I'm going to readd the cleanup tag. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 06:53, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)
[edit] General comments
Either the title of this article is inaccurate or the content is not suited to the title. First of all, as with most other Palestine/Israel-related articles edited by the usual coterie, it is focussed entirely on recent 20th century conflict; secondly, that conflict is apparently shared between two artificially divided groups ie "supporters of Palestine" and "supporters of Israel" when support of both is entirely feasible and exists. Thirdly, the usual POV is being pushed yet again where either one group or other consists mostly of innocent victims - little historical background, especially that pertaining to non-Arab or non-Zionist interference, causation etc is provided; finally - for now - the coterie mentioned is back to editing the articles to make the latter appear as if the bulk of responsibility lies on one side, by removing or dismissing important facts according to subjective criteria, and yet adding "details" on the other side which would easily fail by the same criteria. For instance, Humus claims in a recent edit that "the collective punishment of Palestinians" does not constitute genocide and removes the passage. Although the title says "Genocide and ethnic conflict". Yet he nonchalantly adds some information/sources about a PLO charter that does not recognise Israel's right to exist, which is of course far from constituting genocide. Some logical consistency would go a long way in helping Wikipedia editors contain themselves and focus on good articles and NPOV rather than the all-too-common stupidities of broadcasting and fighting over agendas. -- Simonides 01:02, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- As for EOB's so-called "draft article", it is nice to see an attempt in the right direction, but as with Humus' "sources", following accepted guidelines - academic or otherwise - is not a virtue in itself unless the editor him/herself makes an effort to take a neutral POV. In simpler language, quoting sources is commendable, but not as a means to propaganda; similarly providing background is much better than avoiding context, but the background itself shouldn't be biased, and so on... -- Simonides 01:15, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)
"Genocide" seems to be interpreted quite liberally these days. The Genocide article on Wikipedia (following the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide) defines it as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:"(a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;" etc. As such, the destruction of the State of Israel would undoubtedly cause all of these effect towards the national group known as Israelis. Jayjg | Talk 03:54, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Remembering, Simonides, that unlike in the case of Tibet, the Palestinian Arabs had no real leadership or established society within the Mandate, which was similar to a territory. If the history happens to be on the side of the Palestinian Jews, then that's the NPOV. I'm not interested in arguing over this, but I will make the point. Claims may be made regarding what happend, but the point is claims do not replace what happend. Evolver of Borg 18:04, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- No professional historian ever claims a complete, neutral and definitive knowledge of anything historical, especially not "what happened" in the case of an ongoing conflict - no matter how much they argue for their theories. We're not professionals, but let's not reveal ourselves to be pompous amateurs too. -- Simonides 01:13, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Current title presumes existence of genocide
How can this article be titled "Genocide and ethnic conflict in Israel and Palestine" when there are very serious opinions that there has not been genocide as ordinarily defined in these areas. I'm not saying that there has not been genocide, only that it is seriously disputed. I would retitle this article Alleged genocide in Israel and Palestine as the article seems to focus on the allegations of genocide.--Pharos 19:09, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- How about Claims of genocide in Israel and Palestine? Jayjg | (Talk) 19:50, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Same difference to me.--Pharos 19:53, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
[edit] NPOV debate
While the introduction to this article implies that it is about the possible genocide committed by both Israelis and Palestinians, the only section of substance in the article only discusses actions by Palestinians against Israelis, and there is virtually no mention of any actions in the opposite directions. Certain comments on this talk page imply that at one time there were, so perhaps someone has removed them? In any case, this article is clearly only representing half of the topic, and should be either significantly edited or should recieve a new title.
[edit] This article needs to be removed
The bias of this article is clear. Alleged examples of Arab anti-zionism are solely given. Where are the instances of Israeli aggression onto the Palestinians? I think that this entire page is problematic because it presupposes the genocide of Israelis by Palestinians.
70.55.238.80 18:14, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
So that means it has to be removed, instead of improved? Spark
