Talk:Giuseppe Verdi

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Contents 1 Summary of FAC criticisms 2 NPOV tag 3 Rigoletto's.... "beauty"? 4 verissimo? 5 Misc. 6 Verdi's "Force of Destiny" was written for the Mariinsky? the Bolshoi? the Imperial?? 7 Chorus of the Hebrews and Verdi's Funeral 8 Battle Royale 9 Cultural depictions of Giuseppe Verdi 10 Verdi's Death?

[edit] Summary of FAC criticisms

To people considering editing this article, please consider the following.

The current form of the article was largely written by Ricardo the Texan, who didn't believe in POV on WP. Big arguments resulted, and I'll try here to list the criticisms buried in the FAC subpage, and which have been taken care of...

• The passage that begins: "Unspeakably beautiful melodies are tossed right and left..."
  • Rewritten by Francesco
• "Strewn with POV comments" - referring to such things as declaring Rigoletto as a "great masterpiece", Otello being "masterfully orchestrated" but lacking "melodic luster," and so on.
  • These statements can be in Wikipedia, absolutely - they just have to be supported. If Rigoletto is a great masterpiece, it's a great masterpiece - you just need to quote some critics saying so.
• An untagged image
  • This was the Giuseppina image - I tagged it as in the public domain, because the painting was clearly made before 1923[1] (or 100 years ago, or whatever); however, I don't have *proof* that it was - anyone know the source for this painting?
• Parenthetical text
  • Has largely been taken out of parentheses, tried to make it flow better
• Comparison of birth year to Wagner
  • My thought - I think this should stay in, it's notable. But looking at it again, it's sort of out-of-place. I'm taking it out for now, but anyone can feel free putting it back in where they can fit it.
• It may have been Giuseppina herself who convinced him to continue his career. is criticized as a "weasel term", ie not firm enough
  • If there's evidence for this, present it; if there's not, remove it
• Only two sources referenced
  • More sources listed, but POV statements such as "greatest opera," "melodic gift," etc. need to be backed up by sources
• No mention of String Quartet or "Four Sacred Pieces"
• No mention of controversy over Requiem for being "too operatic" for a religious work
• No mention of political implications of his work
• Descriptions of operas are brief - "lacking in information on plot, theory, ways of interpretation"
  • That being said, descriptions of operas SHOULD be brief, IMO; a discussion of plot, theory, and ways of interpretation belongs in each particular opera's separate articles. Still, expansion is certainly possible

---

Anyways, this article has a long way to go until featured article status, though it certainly could get there. Unfortunately, I know little to none about operas, in this case I can just be a copy-editory... So anyone who does know stuff, feel free to fix each of the problems listed above. I've bold-faced the parts still needing improvement - if you satisfy one, please un-bold it... Zafiroblue05 21:46, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV tag

See Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Giuseppe Verdi. Extraordinary Machine 12:02, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Rigoletto's.... "beauty"?

It's incredible that Rigoletto is phraised for its beautiful melodies. If Verdi would read this, he'd become very, very angry! What about Bellini's melodies, then? Rigoletto is drama, is band-music, is the intentional triviality of the court, is the minimalistic melody of Caro nome, is the one-note-only melody of Monterone and Rigoletto (as a father), is many things among which, also, very few really beautiful melodies (Tutte le feste al tempio, Bella figlia dell'amore .... not much more than this). Please, English language people correct this! thanks from Italy....

• Amen to that. I deleted that passage, but it was reverted. It'd be stupid to get into an edit war, but the fact of that matter is that this passage:

Unspeakably beautiful melodies are tossed right and left, passages of celestial beauty scattered like pearls and never repeated, numerous arias, duets, trios and a quartet follow one another in an unceasing celebration of musical genius; passions vibrate; comedy and tragedy merge seamlessly.

has absolutely NO business being in an encyclopedia. Not only is it point of view, but from someone who seems to know about music (above, anon), it's not even right. Can someone who does know about music rewrite this whole article? Zafiroblue05 14:56, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] verissimo?

should verissimo be mentioned somewhere? (it's not in wikipedia) where does it fit in? What is it? I thought Verdi was an example of verissimo, meaning ultra-real or 'vivid' style. Srl 09:09, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

What do you mean with verissimo. Do you mean verismo? Actually, Verdi's works haven't evident links with French naturalism or Italian verism. They have important links with (French) realism, especially (but not only) in Stiffelio, Rigoletto and La traviata. Al Pereira 16:44, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, verismo! It would help if I spelled it properly. It is under Category:Opera genres but not listed under genres at opera, but i see that it has its section on that page. Thank you. Srl 16:13, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Misc.

Bit rambling.

If you don't like what you see, feel free to fix it. Anyone can edit on Wikipedia. I haven't had time to get to it yet. Antandrus 16:47, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I enjoyed the article, but I felt it implied that Rigoletto and La Traviata were "better" than the later operas like Falstaff and Otello. I don't believe this view is widely held enough to be considered neutral. I considered removing the paragraph about how wonderful Rigoletto is, but didn't because it seemed a shame. Instead how about someone writing something equally eloquent about Falstaff or Otello to provide the balance?

The paragraph about Verdi living until 1904 so what might he have thought of those other operas did seem a bit "rambling" to me.

BenC 22:42, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

and i also think that someone should include a picture of margherita barezzi (his first wife) as well, coz she is so freakin beautiful! no wonder verdi fell in love with her. i've browsed the net for her portrait, but unfortunately the search engine didn't turn out any results. :-(

[edit] Verdi's "Force of Destiny" was written for the Mariinsky? the Bolshoi? the Imperial??

After finding a reference in this article to the premiere of "La forza del destino" taking place in the "Imperial Theatre" in Saint Petersburg, I found that the link went nowhere, so created a link to the Mariinsky, assuming that they were one and the same.

Then I went to various books I own to see what the source of all this is, and I found the following:

Budden, Vol. 2,(paperback), notes on page 427 a letter to the composer asking "would Verdi consider a commission from the Imperial Theatre of St Petersburg".

Phillips-Matz, page 439, says "a proposal from the Imperial Theatre" was sent to Verdi in December 1860.

NOW - Budden gives the first performance as: "Bolshoi Theatre on 10 November 1862" (p.426), whereas Phillips-Matz states in the Appendix: "premiere at Imperial Theatre", same date as Budden, (page 893).

THEN - I looked at Thierry Beauvert's Operas Houses of the World and he refers to the "Bolshoi Theatre" constructed in 1783, rebuilt in 1817 after a fire; then later to the 1855 Circus Theatre which burnt down and was reconstructed by Cavos (sic) as the Mariinsky. (page 68). But he states (page 72) that the world premiere of Forza "was a work commissioned for the Maryinsky" (sic).

SO - -Can we assume that the "Bolshoi" is the same as the "Imperial"??? -Was Verdi's opera really written for the Mariinski?

PS: books named above are referenced in the Verdi article, plus the Beauvert is on the Opera houses page.

Vivaverdi 19:49, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

___________

Sorry, guys, I hate to throw a monkey wrench in your discussion, but

the Forza review in the "Journal de St. Petersbourg", dated Nov.11, 1862

(= Oct.30 in the Russian calendar) begins with this sentence:

"It is midnight. We have just left the first performance of the new opera which Maestro Verdi has written expressly for the Italian Theatre of St. Petersburg." The review is quoted in its entirety by Charles Osborne, Verdi. A Life in the Theatre, New York: Fromm 1987

Dunnhaupt 20:48, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

This is not necessarily a "monkey wrench". There are so many many names for these theatres at this time that one has to be careful. So far, the version which our Russian friend has put together would seem to be right. Vivaverdi 01:38, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chorus of the Hebrews and Verdi's Funeral

Although I did not see it referenced here, I recall during a course at Harvard the instructor indicated that Va, pensiero was "spontaneously" sung by the people of Milan during Verdi's funeral as his body was carried through the streets. The additional element that there was an orchestra and that Toscanini conducted is an element I did not recall, but have seen mentioned on multiple occasions.

Anybody with regular interest in this page have any sources that confirm or deny this legend? I confess I've added it without adequate references, but I do believe it's another lovely element of Verd's legend, and especially of his role in the Risorgimento. hargettp 13:16, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

According to Mary Jane Phillips-Matz, author of the massive 900 page biography of Verdi (this is cited in the References section), "the crowds at the funeral procession were silent" (p.764) but that refered only to the rather simple funeral which Verdi had decreed. She quotes a contemporary account of the funeral which says the same thing.

But she goes to describe a concert conducted by Toscanini at La Scala two days after the funeral (which included the Overture from Nabucco). About a month later - 27 Feb 1901 - the offical memeorial service took place and the bodies of both Verdi and Stepponi were re-buried at the Casa di Riposa. She writes: "before the cortege left the cemetary, Toscanini condducted a chorus of 820 voices in Va, Pensiero... After it reached the Casa di Riposa, the Miserere from Il trovatore was sung. (page 765)

This would seem to mean that what the article says is not correct. Her Verdi biography is regarded as pretty much as definitive.

Vivaverdi 15:51, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Battle Royale

Should it be mentioned that Verdi is featured on the soundtack for the movie Battle Royale? - Deathrocker 09:33, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cultural depictions of Giuseppe Verdi

I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this as a model for the editors here. Regards, Durova 15:51, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Verdi's Death?

Nothing is said about Verdi's death....

NewYork1956 02:15, 29 January 2007 (UTC)