Talk:Happy hardcore
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This article is lacking in the extreme, theres no mention of hardcore legands such as DJ Tom Wilson and his now stuff of legend radio show 'Steppin Out' that people used to drive up into scotland to hear, tapes of his shows where almost a must in the Hardcore/Happy Hardcore scene. No mention of Bass-Generator and his label/Events of the same name. No mention of big events like Rezerection & Helter Skelter. More missing legands are the likes of TTF! Collin Tennet's Jolly Rodger records, no mention of shoop records, of the now famous Tom Wilson-vs-Lenny dee mix off at rezerection. Would someone else who's memory of the scene is as clear as mine please add this stuff as my edits get messy :-) --Poosh 13:31, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
- Well lets respond to this...
- Tom Wilson was Bouncy techno not Happy Hardcore (and was mentioned in this article for a while before being removed).
- Bass Generator is again Bouncy Techno not Happy Hardcore, hell I talk to the guy somewhat frequently on one of my message boards, even he agrees his music was not HHC.
- this is about the music not the parties as such events like Rezerection and Helter Skelter do not belong on here. I seem to recall both being mentioned in the article Rave party however (which is where the mentions do belong).
- Jolly Roger records (no D) is again not Happy Hardcore. It is more properly categorized as Bouncy Techno/Happy Gabber, per this link: "Bouncy Techno from Livingston, West Lothian, Scotland" and you would know this if you ever went to purchase these records somewhere (I have virtually the entire JR back catalogue except #'s 9, 11, 23 and all but one of the JR Lite). The same applies to labels such as Mokum (which you would probably also incorrectly refer to as happy hardcore). Don't feel bad about this one, it a very highly debated point (especially on boards like happyhardcore.com and ush.net) as to whether or not Dutch influenced/released tracks with the typical gabber kickdrum can be classified as happy hardcore.
- Shoop is also Bouncy Techno per this page description: "Bouncy Techno and Tartan Techno label from Kirkcaldy, Scotland. Founded by DJ ZBD in 1993."
- I hope you realize that we're not intentionally ignoring your comments, just merely telling you its in the wrong place. I suggest you do add your information, but in Bouncy techno instead. ALKIVAR™
14:32, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
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- I would like to point out that a happy hardcore techno artist exists that calls them self happy hardcore. Unfortunatly I an new enough that I do not know how to creat a disambiguation page. If some one could do that it would be great.
Foolishben 22:28, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
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- ALKIVAR is correct. Some of this confusion is likely due to the different meanings that "Happy Hardore" has/had throughout the world just like "Hardcore".
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- Tom Wilson covered pretty much everything playing all types of stuff. He probably could go on here and elsewhere on Wikipedia (probably best suited elsewhere). Some of his stuff he produced on vinyl was House and Euro Trance too.
I wrote the so-called 'unwiki' version, and as an old skool/hardcore DJ from the scene, I think it is quite true......
--DJ Slam, (comin on strong, 1991)
I rescued the above contributor's contribution to the page. It needs work for sure, but I think anon and Ahoerstemeier's summary deletion seemed a bit harsh. Wikipedia:Please do not bite the newcomers. I am a little skeptical about its source however. It is written in a very particular style and appeared out of "nowhere" fully researched and written. I did a quick google test on some of the "choice phrases" but turned up nothing. The contributor appears to have been personally involved in the topic, so I may be mistaken. (Hopefully). Nevertheless, it suffers from being a bit obtuse in that it doesn't explain some things. As Ahoerstemeier pointed out, it also needs some wikification. (I don't think submissions that aren't fully wikified deserve to be deleted, however. I often make submissions I know need to be wikified. I'm just too lazy to do it right away.) I also bet it's a bit POV, although I'm not sure how--it just exudes opinion is all. Hopefully someone with better knowledge of the subject (i.e. not pathetic me with just a single "Happy 2B Hardcore" CD) can improve it. I, for one, would be interested to know more than what is written here, or at least know what it all means. -- Nohat 01:22, 2003 Oct 5 (UTC)
Well, an anon came along and disputed part of the article, so I'll move their comment (which they had inappropriately included in the article) and the section they disputed to here. I have no personal knowledge of the subject whatsoever, but the mention of a teenager who died needs more context. Was that incident well-known, or is that just someone's cautionary tale? Isomorphic 13:30, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Moved from article:
the following section has been starred out because of the absurdity. 1 person dies from 1 pill, yet hundreds of thousands do not. More people die from alcohol poisoning.
Who wrote this anyhow? ~"With attitudes to the rave scene still unchanged, happy hardcore had a very long way to go before ever even thinking about achieving commercial success"~ Whoever thought we wanted to achieve commercial success? I'd say most ravers are opposed to this view.
- Sadly, the danger of the raves lived on. In November 1995, Leah Betts, an Essex teenager, died on her 18th birthday after taking one fatal ecstacy tablet. With attitudes to the rave scene still unchanged, happy hardcore had a very long way to go before ever even thinking about achieving commercial success.*
This was a massively publicised incident, i was only 9 years old in 1995 and i still remember her name and it being all over the news back then. However, tragic as it was, it hasn't really got anything to do with happy hardcore and so doesn't belong on this page. Maybe it would be more useful on a page about ecstasy/drugs generally. Also i think it's wrong to assume everyone who goes to raves is taking e, or that everyone who takes e is into rave music. I personally have very strong views against drugs but i still wouldnt put this in the article, it's really got no valid connection. (Danrhyn 20:56, 2 July 2006 (UTC))
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- To add to that, i recall that none of the group were known to be particular fans of this genre and from the stories i've read appear to have been into brit-pop and indie rock at the time plus the cause of death was later found to be water intoxication rather than a drug related death. --Neon white 02:54, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
I recently updated the Happy Hardcore entry to include djs more significantly influential in the old skool days. Included more current sub genre information on Freeform Hardcore the sound predominantly pushing forward the scene in the UK and worldwide. Removed various junglist bias statements about happy hardcore. Fixed broken links and actually spent several hours tracking down some of the various djs mentioned so as to link directly to their home pages. Alkivar
- Thanks for doing that, I have converted the external links to wikilinks and moved all the external links to the relevant external links section. External links should not be inline in wikipedia articles most links in inline text (except in rare cases) should be internal wikilinks (see: Wikipedia:External links, and especially: Wikipedia:Don't use external links where we'll want Wikipedia links) so that a page on that artist can be created. If the artist is warranted to be encyclopedic enough to have an article created on them, then the link to that artists homepage can also be added to that page. I have preserved all of the existing links, in the new ==External links== section, so no information should be lost. --Lexor|Talk 11:27, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I thought artists such as Dune are happy hardcore. There really is no info about the most popular hh artists here, just the early ones are mentioned. Also the into rays that it "was at its peak between 1994 and 1997", but the article then goes "In this course of time 1995–1997 the music was still evolving."
- I am a big fan of artists such as Dune, Blümchen, Das Modul, Marusha, Westbam, who are the majority of Germany's contributions to Happy Hardcore. To be fair, the German and Dutch influences were more "pop" in their native countries than "underground" and it could easily be argued that as such they do not deserve inclusion with the rest of what could be considered an underground rave culture. However as I am a fan of these artists, they will eventually be included at some future date, at the moment however this is an incomplete US/UK Centric history, best to fill in the gaps with that before trying to pull the article in another direction. Alkivar 00:03, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Contents |
[edit] Confusing?
"Some producers (Luna-C, Slipmatt, Red Alert & Mike Slammer, Brisk, DJ Vibes, Wishdokta, etc.), however, were simply not having this. They were beginning to make a few minor changes. There were now polyrhythmic breakbeats, half-speed dub-bass and no 4/4 kick drum (which attracted many black ravers, who promptly introduced MCs into the scene)."
This looks like the producers mentioned were taking hardcore further in the breakbeat direction in response to the commercial cheese, yet, these are happy hardcore producers. Perhaps this should read:
"There were now polyrhythmic breakbeats, half-speed dub-bass and no 4/4 kick drum (which attracted many black ravers, who promptly introduced MCs into the scene). Some producers (Luna-C, Slipmatt, Red Alert & Mike Slammer, Brisk, DJ Vibes, Wishdokta, etc.), however, were simply not having this push further into the breakbeat direction. They were beginning to make a few minor changes."
I won't edit for now but I may do so soon if no-one has any objections.
--Thedangerouskitchen 11:52, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- your proposed edit goes against how the music evolved timeline wise IMO. you will notice at the time (Pre SMD #1 - early 1993) most of the named producers were STRICTLY breakbeat. it was not until around the time Slipmatt released SMD #1 that these folks began to bring back the 4/4 (which began late 93 - early 94), sometimes including it in the same track! (most kniteforce stuff from 93-94) I am open to debate on this but i'm pretty sure if you do the research you'll find i'm right. basically timeline follows:
- 91 - 93 -- bouncy 4/4 sped up "rave" tracks like Sesame's Treet etc...
- Late 93 - Late 94 -- bouncy & breakbeat stuff but less chipmonky tracks like SMD #1, Green Eggs and... etc..
- Early 95 - Late 98 -- almost exclusively 4/4 with pianos the anthem era tracks like Here I Am, Heart of Gold, Eyeopener etc...
- Early 99 - Now -- emergence of a trancier UK sound, emergence of Freeform, reemergence of breakbeat happy hardcore
- Alkivar 23:55, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)
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- Thanks for clarifying that, I wasn't really aware of the scene at the time as I wasn't old enough. The article is much better now. --Thedangerouskitchen 03:15, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Glad i could sort things out for you. Its still confusing and convoluted, but its the closest i can get explanation wise. you also need to realize that i refer to the MAJORITY of the stuff out at a time. there will always be those certain artists who buck trends (Vibes / Luna-C / etc...) but this should help :) Alkivar 03:39, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Thanks for clarifying that, I wasn't really aware of the scene at the time as I wasn't old enough. The article is much better now. --Thedangerouskitchen 03:15, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Massive overhaul required for 2006
This article needs a major overhaul. It is in parts a total and complete mess.
As you can read below from the talk - or the foreign articles on Wiki on this subject - there is much differences of what happy hardcore is across the world. Basically, it is all different - it is needing to be a general page that explains all these different definitions.
- "I thought artists such as Dune are happy hardcore. Also the into rays that it "was at its peak between 1994 and 1997", but the article then goes "In this course of time 1995–1997 the music was still evolving."
- "I am a big fan of artists such as Dune, Blümchen, Das Modul, Marusha, Westbam, who are the majority of Germany's contributions to Happy Hardcore. at the moment however this is an incomplete US/UK Centric history"
Whilst that is likely correct in their country - from the UK - it is something totally else and was simply never played in the UK rave scene ever. That's not to say that the German stuff should not be included - it needs to be. This article needs to be far more general. It's getting to a stage that happy hardcore is a term - much like hardcore is - rather than an actual style.
I've started extracting all details regarding the English style into 4-beat. This is its alternative name - there is no difference. It also stops this muddle. A lot of these things listed currently in the links like Blumchen, Noahphex and White Russian - have nothing to do with 4-beat. I doubt they even know what it is.
- The scene was now set for the genre's merge with bouncy techno and 4-beat.
Happy hardcore (from a UK point only, of what happy hardcore means) could not merge with 4-beat as it is the exact same thing.
- It was this merging of trance influences with hardcore that caused the birth of a new genre Freeform Hardcore. Also around this time the UK Happy Hardcore had started taking influences from the mainstream trance tunes heard virtually everywhere. While this move attracted new listeners it also began to alienate some of its long time producers, many of which switched to producing Hard house or simply retired.
This is correct but that only pertains to the UK side only. Happy hardcore is an international term with different meanings across the world. What Blumchen was doing in Germany has nothing to do with this.
- Freeform also created its own network of DJs and producers most noticeably CLSM, Sharkey, AMS, Kevin Energy, and lesser knowns such as Tilzs, AC Slater, Sunrize, Daywalker, Oli G, White Russian, Brak, Bounce and Dodgee.
Really none of these DJs should ever be listed - for the most part they are only playing music. Only the most important *producers* need to be listed. Also freeform has nothing to do with this article and should not be mentioned here in any great length.
- Hardcore also received its own special in 2004 on BBC Radio 1 entitled John Peel Is Not Enough named after a CLSM track of the same name.
This is correct but should not be listed here, but rather in UK Hardcore article. Happy hardcore is no longer a term used in the UK as that breakbeat style (AKA 4-beat) had long since ceased due to the death of the scene around 1997/8 as mentioned in the current article here. > "Around 1997 various UK rave culture publications started announcing the largely mistaken "death" of Hardcore, but it had instead just gone back to its underground roots."
- Link: Artists and producers - Blumchen, Entropy, Venom, Noahphex, Spree, Cloudskipper, Matt Positive, CLSM, AMS, Tilzs, AC Slater, Sunrize, Daywalker, DJ Brak, Oli G, White Russian, Alkivar, DJ CandyKid, DUNE
Now for the most part - these links have *nothing* to do with the articles and must be removed - it is mostly SPAM. It looks most are using this to link to home pages to get DJ bookings. If it continues to be added - this will become a protected page where no edits can be done.
In the mean time, if unsure head over to the forum at [www.ush.net] forum and ask there as they are far more clued up on this stuff and there is much good information. --Revolt 14:03, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
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- these artists did not add their own links. I added them, by that rationale the only "spam" link is my own.
- threatening protection is not tolerated, you are not an administrator and can therefore not even follow up on your threat.
- as for USH.net I and several of those "spam" artists are regular contributors over there...
- this history is accurate, if poorly worded... I will get around to a copyedit at some point in the near future.
- In the meantime please remain civil and do not threaten protection. ALKIVAR™ 05:55, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Yes people like CLSM and Oli G and others are artists and likely merit an inclusion. If it's on about them as Freeform as it already says...
Freeform also created its own network of DJs and producers most noticeably CLSM, Sharkey, AMS, Kevin Energy, and lesser knowns such as Tilzs, AC Slater, Sunrize, Daywalker, Oli G, White Russian, Brak, Bounce and Dodgee.
...then it should not be mentioned here in great detail but rather contained in the Freeform article - as I already stated - no one disputes their inclusion if they have made a significant musical contribution to the style in the article. Why is the details being included here - this is what I mean!
this history is accurate
No where in this history does it mention DJ Seduction, Sy, Dougal and others - the most prolific and influencial artists of this movement - and what they did musically (I refer to the origins - not 21st century) . It doesn't even touch on that. Look at this too WP:MUSIC. The like of Seduction covers that. Just chucking in the text "DJ Seducion" in a line means nothing - who was he - what did he do - why is he being included?
Rather we've got things like DJ Bounce linking to a page on here about velocity and AC Slater a page on the TV show Saved By The Bell! This is correct?
Do they have sufficient Wikipedia:Importance to be included in Wikipedia? I do not dispute this but remeber that the main text in the article refers only to the breakbeat style of music confined to the England rave scene - were they even around then of 1994?
By late 1994, happy hardcore had broken away from Jungle... It was rejected by the dance mainstream and had its own media and pirate radio. Other US DJs would follow in the next few years Entropy, Venom, Phil Free Art, Matt Positive...
Matt Positive's homepage lists a load of gigs starting at 1999. I don't see the relationship here with 1994? Also why did it break away from Jungle - where is the source? Phil Free Art do this? I'm not enquiring to the answers - but rather putting all what is wrong with the article.
There is just so much more.--Revolt 18:09, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
this history is accurate, if poorly worded... I will get around to a copyedit at some point in the near future.
To understand what I'm getting at - as this business with the DJ links I'm not even interested in - check this recent article. There is some good points mixed in - I've taken the best bits.
http://www.ush.net/board/viewtopic.php?t=155812&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
- i) I think it is a general consensus that the term 'Happy Hardcore' relates mostly to the 96 - 99 era. Especially by people outside the scene. You and I know that the term 'Happy' was coined long before that, but most people who have never been into the scene don't. So they instantly associate the term with the same music of 7 years ago which it is not.
- ii) Certainly, I know for a fact that the Dutch consider [their own] stuff happy hardcore. They wouldn't call it gabba. It's Dutch happy hardcore - which being Dutch may be similar in style to gabba, but it aint gabba. Plus the fact remains that there was shitloads of stuff like Jieeehaaa (in fact that whole period of Dutch stuff is heavily UK influenced - first by Scottish [bouncy techno] stuff, but also with English sounds) which was undeniably happy hardcore or similar bouncy stuff, that was still hard.
- iii) You are never going to convince me that any of the mid 90's Dutch techno is Happy Hardcore. Even tracks like 'Wonderful Days' and 'My Little Fantasy' still have a distinct European sound. They are not like the Happy Hardcore I was buying at the time like the stuff on Homegrown, Kniteforce, Corrosive, Impact etc...
- v) Surely you can accept that there might be different styles of happy hardcore.
- vi) to me happy hardcore will always be the classic stuff from '96 time
The article on here needs to be broken down IMO. It has different meanings across the world and these meanings have since changed and as such no longer reflect their origins.
The English breakbeat stuff decribed here is only one type of "Happy Hardcore" - it is not the sole type. The English stuff (AKA 4-beat - it's alternative name) is from the breakbeat hardcore side. That English breakbeat style soon ceased by 1996 (as written in the history in this article on here).
Then there's the Dutch who also refer to their stuff as "Happy Hardcore" but is something different to the above. The Dutch stuff was influenced by Bouncy Techno and later a bit of 4-beat around 1995 - not breakbeat hardcore. This is why the current article on Wikipedia says "This genre of music is closely related to the typically Dutch genre of Gabba."
That is not something that the English breakbeat stuff can claim to be - only the Dutch stuff can - there's no gabber sounds in this English stuff, hence why no where in the "development of happy hardcore" section does it mention gabber.
Then there's the more general opinion that "Happy Hardcore" is the stuff about woman vocal anthems, signing and cover verision - the stuff of the late 1990s. This is mentioned in the very first paragraph with "female vocals, and saccharine lyrics". It attracted a much younger audience and was more commercial and widespread.
Again, this is not something the English breakbeat stuff (or the Dutch stuff) can really claim to be. There is little stuff with vocals or lyrics back then - it was mainly just stuff with the usual rave samples sampled from other things.
It may well be one the most complicated articles to write. Your thoughts? --Revolt 14:17, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Genre Question
well then I have a question. What genre is Special D? He sounds like happy hardcore to me but some may disagree. So does anyone know what sort of genre his mixes are? weems 16:36, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Special D music is too slow to be hardcore/hhc. I don't know of an official name for his genre, but i've seen it coined before as 'hands up hard-trance' on party flyers. -- Happy2BKandie
It struck me as very strange that the ID&T albums Happy Hardcore 1-9 isn't mention in the article! That is how I define Happy Hardcore. What about f.e. Critical Mass, Rob Gee and 4 Tune Fairytales? - OneUp
- Rob Gee is not Hardcore... Rob Gee is Gabber (and I know him very very well having performed with him at least 5 times.) Critical Mass would also be termed Gabber... 4 Tune Fairytales = Happy Gabber/Bouncy Techno... once again categorized improperly as "hardcore". ALKIVAR™ 01:19, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] First wave / second wave etc
We could categorise the different stages of what is thought of as 'HH'. For me, HH means Die Hard, Vibealite, Helter Skelter etc and the music played there in the early nineties. There can be no denying, however, that it means different things to different people - just search the internet for what Americans think constitutes HH. Good music, but not what HH originally signified and totally lacking in the whole sweaty, happy, skimpy, whistles 'n' horns, gurning, my new best mate atmosphere of 'proper' HH. As well as a fan of proper HH, I also like a bit of ska. Ska is often categorised as first wave / second wave (two tone) / nu wave or whatever. Maybe a general cover-all article on the HH genre as a whole would be better here, with sub-articles on the different parts?
Cod 23:16, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
There have been huge disputes as to the definition of Happy Hardcore. Maybe we need to split up the page into the different perspectives from around the world. Triangle e 12:33, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
- More common Wikipedian style would be to devote a section to defining the term Happy Hardcore, and leave plenty of room to explain the different "versions" of it that are known around the world. I don't think there needs to be sub-articles on each sub-genre ... hell it's hard enough to handle one article. Just a section on each major sub and maybe one more for more general definitions, then a few examples (no lists) for each and that should keep the article neat enough. freshgavinΓΛĿЌ 10:32, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Hm....
I was almost surprised at the lack of mention related to the subculture of ravers that follow the scene. On almost every other genre of electronic music I looked up, I discovered most of them relate a specific style to the music, especially Gabber. In my experience with rave culture ( which mind you, comes from attending only about 7 raves.) I've discovered that the ever cheery CandyKid is a strong believer in Happy Hardcore. The melodic ideas of Happy Hardcore almost appear to be specifically made for the more obnoxious raver ( and I mean no offense by that statement.) Where as Darkcore may appeal to Graver's because of it's devious and shadowy aura, Happy Hardcore most certainly arouses a candyraver to even occasionally sing along with lyrics they're farmilar with. I tend to notice a more lighthearted feeling come across a crowd of ravers in general, when the peppy music fills the room. But you have to at least attribute the music to candykids, purely because of how they both can be assaulting to your calm, and brisk to make you cheerfull, and smiley. I also noticed a lack of giving notice to the way vocals are often synthesized in Happy Hardcore. There was no mention of the " sucking helium from a balloon" tone that most vocals take on. Now that is pretty general, because I have heard Happy Hardcore without said 'accapellas', but it's still a characteristic of the entire idea of the music. I felt that the article written was sufficient, but only just. It gives no insight to the actual idealism of the music's intentions and affect on the masses of over-enthused listeners. There was also no mention of the fued between a Rotterdamn Gabber, and Happy Hardcore. I have always noticed that Hardstyle has a good laugh when Happy Hardcore is mentioned. But was alerted when hearing the song " Happy is voorr homos" by Neophyte, which blatently ( and somewhat amusingly) shows the distinct loathing for the style.
- The problem with this is that it varies on an international level. The UK rave scene is vastly different to the US one for example, and I've never experienced "candykids" and "gravers" as you and US ravers often describe. The only two kinds of people that I've experienced in the UK are the confident, up-for-anything people who dress up, aren't shy about getting up and dancing on boxes and the like, and the slightly more reserved people who just have a bit of fun with friends. However this is mostly due to self-confidence and such rather than any sort of subculture and everyone gets along. There is no divide there.
[edit] Marusha
I've just seen Maruscha Gleiss in the list of hhc DJs/producers. She's nice but a considerable part of her works is not fast enough and almost everything can't be thought to be a hhc. Can anyone also sort the list by the place of origin? :-)
