Talk:Irma Grese
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--86.29.248.32 04:02, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
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[edit] Irma Grese
I wonder why Irma Grese was such horrible person. Is it true that she was a victim of the war. I am not a symperthizer of Nazis. But I fell really sorry for this young lady and even more sorry for the all the jews killed in the war. If she had been born in a peace time she not only would had lived a normal life by becoming a lover, wife and a mother but also would shown great courage and bravery in her work. It is indeed sad she treated jewish prisoners with animilistic treatment. It is very sad that she choses children to be gassed. But my view is that she should have been spared from hanging as she was a minor and a teenager at the time of the crime occured. (Irshad Cassim - Sri Lanka)
It seems perfectly obvious that she was a depraved psychopath. Obviously, in peace time her behaviour would soon have landed her in jail and on the block. - Norvo, 00:08 UTC, 18 June 2006
It's probably true that Irma Grese would have led a normal life if not for the war. But It's difficult to have sympathy for someone so cruel, especially considering her alleged collection of lampshades. It has been suggested that she was a nymphonanic, but according to the morality of the time, this may merely have meant she had a high sex drive. If she was mentally ill, she should have been spared. I have also read that her story inspired the Moors murderer Myra Hindley. Does anyone know if there's any truth in this?
Terry Huggins. Hastings. England.
Before running in circles, is there any documentation on Miss Grese other than trial stuff, which appears to be witness statements only. Camp records, etc. I have so far not run across anything other than Nurember/witness stuff which reeks of gossip level info. There appear to be some documents on her by the rare but occasional number that slips in - number of days on a certai detail ( where does this come from?). Details of her pre-interrogation statement seem known and her post-interrogation statement is certainly well known.159.105.80.80 19:39, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Any documentation - any - at all? Some of the attempts at documentation end up muddying the water - trial transcripts that make the prosecution witnesses look bad, etc. I have asked for sources, maybe this is all that exists?159.105.80.80 13:22, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Moderate posts please!
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This article is a frequent source of heated debate. Please try to keep a cool head when commenting here.
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I know this is a conravershal subject, but could every one please try to keep a cool head and avoid argueing on-line as has resently happened on this page and the Holocust talk page not so long ago.--86.29.248.151 00:51, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Calm talk!
Cool it man!--86.25.52.108 06:37, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
That's so true, man!--Strento 01:51, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Yep!--86.29.250.156 20:09, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
We need it! --86.25.51.230 02:19, 25 March 2007 (UTC) Yes, we do need it.--86.29.248.151 00:41, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Stop messging!
Will every one please stop messing with this contraversial article! --86.29.251.214 21:06, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
That's so true.--86.29.248.151 00:41, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I have finnish the 'de-trolling' others have started before me. The trolls have been deleted.--86.25.49.40 00:35, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Semi-protection.
I think it needs it in order to get rid of that small band of ' Irma ghoast-hunters' cranks, odd-balls and disruptive 'I.P. number olny guys'. Anything to do withth Word war 2's war-crimes needs a close watch to. --Homer slips. 05:00, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Yep!--86.25.52.108 06:46, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree.--86.29.255.108 02:55, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Yo,man!--86.29.250.83 02:02, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Yeh, we nead it!--Nikki Fagin 02:06, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
It's neaded!--86.29.253.109 01:20, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
As dose the talk-page!--86.29.242.40 18:31, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
It's a must have on this page, the article page and the Holocast pages.--86.29.248.151 00:41, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Another Wikipedia Travesty
It is a bias Wiki-Travasty!--Nikbar Sini 04:18, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Irma Grese was a simple farm girl who became a postal clerk at Belsen. Does anyone believe a girl this beautiful would bed with some lice ridden camp criminals? Short biography[citation needed] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.12.194.210 (talk)
- Nice to see the latest generations of Nazi's are still at it. Oh well, they are sooooo amusing though, poor things! --RobNS 23:37, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
It's not a 'Wiki-travesty'!--86.25.51.230 02:19, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] A source-
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/6142/irma.html --Homer slips. 03:12, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Intresting inks
- //www.auschwitz.dk/Women/Grese.htm
- //www.justiceatdachau.com/bio.htm
- //militaryhistory.suite101.com/article.cfm/irma_grese_beast_of_auschwitz
- //www.auschwitz.dk/Women/Bormann.htm
- //www.auschwitz.dk/Women/Mandel.htm
- //www.auschwitz.dk/Women/Bothe.htm
-
- I'd just like to point out that the cwporter.com link leads to a anti-jewish nutter conspiracy hate site. The greencastle.k12.pa.us link is to a schoolgirl that seems to have made a quilt (blanket) commemorating Nazi women (very odd, not encyclopedic). Justiceatdachau.com, although an interesting book is about Dachau and Buchenwald prosecutions (nothing to do with Irma Grese). People seem to mix up Ilse Koch (The Bitch of Buchenwald) with Irma Grese. The wikipedia link is to... here. --Eqdoktor 06:30, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
Rationale- I thought the quilt was an intresting new off-shoot which involve Irma. Encyclopedic? The silly cwporter sight was a bit to 'mustard' after all. It apears not alternate veipoint, just wieard! As for the link from this page to this page- It's a error, I wanted Ilse Koch, but cut and paisted the wrong one. --Homer slips. 04:53, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
C.W.Porter is to be handeled with care and caution due to it's far right-wing nature.--86.29.248.151 00:41, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] The use of the phraze "lice ridden..."
I guess the editors must have agreed about " the lice ridden " part. Is the complete record of an article available - original, edits ( each ) etc? It would be interesting to compare how goofy an article gets ( from both sides - I doubt the dreaded trolls,etc can match the "official" edits in most cases. Anyhow, per Miss Grese, tracing down each account ( head of 30,000, etc )should prove amusing - I believe most of these accounts rely on a surprisingly smaal number of "eyewitnesses" who often get things a little out of whack. I just came from a site by cwporter ( I know an unreliable source but reading him seems to flesh this story out a bit. One witness - Abraham Gl***** - seems to be a/the source for some of the good stuff about Miss Grese. I will try to chase him down. 159.105.80.80 15:17, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Factual accuracy
Abraham Glinowieski, seems to be a major witness against several defendants. Some of hid testimony seems questionable, but he was the witness du jour. Abe had Miss Grese performing tasks that appeared well above her pay grade ( ie a teenager was selecting who was to be killed - a doctors only job, of course if there ever was such a job.) Reading thhe trial transcript, or available parts seems to rasie more questions than it answeres.159.105.80.80 17:18, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
How did she dare shot prisoners on her own whim when camp commanders were executed for cruelty to inmates? Sounds unlikely that she lived long enough to be captured and hung by the British. [citation needed]159.105.80.80 17:24, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
The article tries to imply (accidently maybe?) that she was SS - no way, no women were SS. SS-helper was as close as she could get. Camp matron. Her whip was supposed to be jewle encrusted - actually made of cellophane, minus the jewels.159.105.80.80 18:16, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Can all sources be so blindly belived? Watch out for the far-right and radical left, which hold out on so-called Holocaust 'history' sites. Some sites nead to be treated with care and caution, due to thier radical viewpoints. (C.W.Porter, ect).!--86.29.242.170 18:30, 22 March 2007 (UTC)[citation needed]
I agree, mate!--86.29.250.83 01:44, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Yeo, man!--86.29.250.156 20:09, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Copyright violations
Portions of this article appear to be copied verbatim from [judicial-inc.biz/Irma_Grese_by_redirect.htm]. Also, the web page from which the text is taken appears very sympathetic to her and the Nazis in general. 66.30.14.1 09:14, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
- This is indeed something to consider. That website seems to be either pro-Nazi, holocaust-denying, or both. JHMM13 (T | C)
00:14, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Whether you are pro- or anti- Nazi the facts stay the same. --88.109.191.249 14:12, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Neutrality
I read this article for research a few months ago and whilst the early parts appear the same, most of the latter half appears to have been substantially re-edited in her favour, as well as certain other statements (eg. the executioner's suicide) which didn't appear in the earlier article at all. It is also interesting that none of this supposedly verifiable information is referenced in any way.
DG, Leeds, UK
I've added 3 [citation needed] tags to the dogy bits on her love life. --Homer slips. 03:54, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Neatrality? I think the POV-tag is misplaced. It should not refer to "War crimes" but to "Beautiful Beast". The "War crimes" section is, in my view, factual and neutral. It just tells what she was accused of, and convicted for. The only factual mistake here seems to be the date of her conviction - I don't believe she was hanged the same day!
- Found meanwhile the correct date of conviction in a German document [1] and changed it.--Kauko56 23:47, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
The "Beautiful Beast" section, however, dwells on her (alleged) lovers or sexual preferences and is therefore irrelevant for her place in history, or her legal guilt. The references for this section do not point to sources but to tabloid press clippings. If we want to shed some light on who she was as a person (not: as a criminal) we should at least try to get better sources.
These are the reasons why I removed the POV-Tag from "War Crimes" and placed it on "Beautiful Beast". --Kauko56 23:34, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
I've been studying Mengele for a long time, and nowhere have I ever heard that he took Irma Grese as a lover. If anything, he was fiercely loyal to his wife, Irene, and she even lived with him at Auschwitz for about a year. I think a lot of this article is wishful thinking, trying to make another cruel SS guard into some romantic heroine. --Rebecca, Myrtle Beach SC 10/07/06
Research project - if her love life ( if it existed ) is not verifiable by reliable sources, then where did the unreliable data come from - proNazi sources? Could some junk come from non-ProNazi sources, perish the thought, but let's document it. 159.105.80.141 13:32, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] War Crimes?
Framed by "...hysterical Jewesses that wanted blood"? The whole section is neo-Nazi claptrap.
I'm sorting out the Neo-Nazis, dros, crap and cods-wolp tomorrow. I've also got a bundel of links I'm adding to! --Homer slips. 03:32, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Delete Last Paragraph
Even without knowing the true facts, anyone can see that the last paragraph on the subject of Irma Grese is Nazi Propaganda. Get rid of it!
Edited as of 10/8/06 into more or less the same state it was in previously - which, oddly, did include the bit about the ghost.
DG, Leeds
[edit] Ghost Story
I don't know where the ghost story regarding Krema 3 came from with the night watchman in 1948 - all the gas chambers and crematoria were destroyed by the guards (other than one blown up by prisoners) in 1945
It's probaly a hoax goast story, sice the sorce is a bit dodgy.--Nikki Fagin 01:03, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Neo-Nazis Again Pushing Their Pseudo-Heroine
The Neo-Nazis are at it again, massaging the article and trying to promote this depraved individual into some kind of glorious and victimized Aryan milkmaid. We'll have to keep an eye on this -- either that or have the article protected in some reasonably neutral form. I'd hate to have some innocent kid stumble across it in its current form and assume it's for real.
Irma Grese was never SS, because the SS never allowed women. How anyone can believe the crap about her skinning Jews is beyond the pale. She was a simple farm girl that worked at a camp, she was paid by German labor dept.
She was a sadistic guard and liked to beat people with her wip, but did not have Ilsa Koch's type 'skin lampshades' in her office. --Lilidor 06:44, 7 March 2007 (UTC) [citation needed]#
Only Ilsa had the skin books, lampshade and romoured shoes. [citation needed] 86.25.52.108 06:51, 7 March 2007 (UTC).
No one had 'skin lampshades'. It's just atrocity propaganda. --Saintrotter 13 March [citation needed]
[edit] Anti-Nazis Again Pushing Their Pseudo-Hate Figure
Parts of this "encyclopedic article" are taken from a webpage which also states the following: 'In her hut were found the skins of three inmates that she had had made into lamp shades'. Am I alone, really, in struggling with the utter harebrained stupidity of that preposterous claim and if such a claim could be made, and people would believe it, surely it puts the rest of the charges under extreme strain and a posthumous pardon should be considered for this young lady. --88.111.194.14 14:48, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
My grandfather is a WWII vet that was part of the company that liberated Auschwitz, and one of the things he has told me about, many times, were the lampshades made of human skin. Apparently they prized skin with birthmarks or tattooes. He has also seen (and I have seen a photo he snapped of this) a human pelvic bone polished and stained, being used as an ashtray holder.
A posthumous pardon would be neither here nor there; her crimes have been committed and she is surely suffering for them. --Rebecca, Myrtle Beach SC 7/10/06
Time will tell, and I am sure it will favour her. --88.110.142.244 23:57, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Unless your grandfather was a Russian he never got anywhere near Auschwitz. The ashtray story is a good one - what noone bothered to take a photo? How about the skin story - no photos - darn it all.159.105.80.63 18:20, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Removed bits
I removed today the following bit from the "Execution" section:
"to be hanged by Ronald Cook, assisted by Regimental Sergeant-Major O'Neill." Reason: The name "Richard Cook" was not supported by sources. The name O'Neill stems from Pierrepoint's autobiography, but there is no evidence that already the verdict contained the names of executioner and assistant, which the article'S wording seemed to imply.
Second bit removed: "One of the hangmen, Ronald Cook, refused to hang Griese. Major Jerome Burdik ordered him to and that night he went home and shot himself. Afterwards two American military policemen Sgt O'Hare and Cpl Rick Smith also were court marshaled for refusing to walk Irma to the gallows and a civilian hangman had to be flown in from Britain for the task."
It is correct that the "civilian hangman" Pierrepoint was flown in, but everything else is unsupported by sources and seems to be taken from ://militaryhistory.suite101.com/article.cfm/irma_grese_beast_of_auschwitz which, in turn, does not give sources either. Apart from this, the claim that American military policemen had been involved in any way is incredible since Belsen as well as Hameln were in the British Occupation Zone where U.S. soldiers had no function whatsoever. Details as dotty as that destroy the credibility of everything else as well.
The weblink quoted above was removed from the "External links" section as well since it was inserted to support the sentence that "Three different hangmen refused to hang Irma Grese", a claim for which there is no support in the website quoted, and which seems to serve no purpose except portraying Grese as a victim so innocent that it was evident even to the executioners...
I find it typical and disturbing that changes of this type are regularly made by people who go by an IP address rather than using an account. It sheds some light on their courage - or lack of same. --Kauko56 18:17, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree about those number only guys, Kauko56! --Homer slips. 04:26, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
I also concure, lads!--86.29.248.151 00:41, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Some clean up
Added a picture (public domain mugshot), my non-NPOV opinion is that shes no beauty by modern standards. Deleted the last of the unsourced "beautiful beast" items that just cannot be verified outside of unreliable gossipy websites. If you can find more respectable sources/testimonies about her deviant behavior in camps, your welcome to put it back in (with ref cites). Removed the haunting stuff which is unencyclopedic hearsay. If you have a decent article (not gossip mags) that specifically addresses the fact that her ghost haunts Auschwitz - you can put it back in (again citing sources). Removed the lamp shade statement, I know its been mentioned in a lot of other sites (and some of them respectable) but its an urban myth [2][3] that seems to have mixed up Irma Grese with Ilse Koch. Nazi Horrors need no embellishments. Article still needs a lot of work, specifically in citing sources. --Eqdoktor 13:35, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
- The picture... oh wow. Irma Grese, what a pretty Aryan man! --HanzoHattori 10:54, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
- Removed "Irma's Defense" section, the only source of her quotes are from hate websites. There's no way, no how I will direct traffic to those places to cite them. Refer to Wikipedia policies on external links. --Eqdoktor 17:01, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
I have also found that out!--Tommie A. Quwinton 20:29, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Historians now know that there were no gas chambers at Bergen Belsen. However, did the trial in 1945 make that distinction? Current article on her try to differentiate her two assignments - did the 1945 trial or was a later development?159.105.80.80 14:18, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Citation question - one of many - three minutes to die could come from 10:03am when she was hung. The doctor declared her dead as soon as he walked down the stairs. Maybe there is a proholocaust site that has a good citation on the 3 minute story but I couldn't find it - just wishful thinking maybe.( Pierrepointe was the states official hangman - he rarely made mistakes after the hundreds he hung)159.105.80.80 18:11, 20 March 2007 (UTC) Sorry about the time - wiki source says 9:34 not 10:03 ( that was the second execution of the day ). The source makes the article definitely look like wishful thinking - no 3 minutes, maybe even a shot of chloroform. 159.105.80.80 18:24, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
If you remove the lampshade story, consider that the whip was cellophane, laugh about the shooting of prisoners and the starving dogs, take Mr Abraham Glinowski with a grain of salt, etc you end up with not much of a story - much less trial. Was citation [2] just meant to be an embarrassment?159.105.80.141 12:10, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
