Talk:List of United Kingdom disasters by death toll

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Contents 1 Cut-off point 2 Record 3 Major expansion 4 Cause of death per year. 4.1 Cause of Death per Year 5 Smaller disasters 6 Mining disasters 7 Empress of Ireland 8 table 9 Sweating sickness 10 Herald of Free Enterprise 11 9/11 and 7/7

[edit] Cut-off point

I may do some more research and lower the cut-off point to 30 deaths. --mervyn 15:15, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I've often heard the Kings Cross fire described as "one of the worst disasters", but at 31 deaths it doesn't make the list. Zoganes 16:28, 2005 Jan 9 (UTC)

Ah. I've just added a disaster which has always been regarded using that word, and had great impact on the psyche of local people, but had a death toll of "only" 32. Sorry, I hadn't noticed the cut-off. To make matters worse, I see it's in the list of smaller disasters on this page. Specifically, it was a ferry disaster (Torry, Aberdeen), and was bad enough to prompt a bridge to be built. I think King's Cross, mentioned above, is also an obvious case of a disaster (by reason of the impact on people's perceptions of their safety, and by reason of the expenditure across the tube system which resulted.) So, in short, I vote for reducing the limit to 30! Or better still, justifying inclusion by something more sensitive than merely numbers. I'll remove the 32-deaths entry for now, but look forward to a discussion of the number here! :) – Kieran T ^{(talk | contribs)} 00:09, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

It is a tricky problem -- when I started working on this, I put in a cut off point to make it possible to aim for a completely inclusive list -- mainly because below a certain level, the sheer number of shipwrecks and coal mine disasters becomes unmanageable. But it does lead to some rather odd exclusions, hence the addendum Talk:List_of_United_Kingdom_disasters_by_death_toll#Smaller_disasters. We could include "Other notable disasters" or "Selected smaller disasters" as a subsection on the main page, but then how do we define "notable"? Other options might be (as you say) to reduce the cut-off point slightly, though that still leaves odd omissions, eg Great Fire of London. OR, include only post-19th century smaller disasters ? Any other thoughts? --mervyn 12:48, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Record

As far as I can tell, RMS Titanic still holds the "record" for the greatest verifiable British loss of life in a single incident in peacetime -- is this true? --mervyn 15:15, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Major expansion

Major expansion done, esp of aircrash and mine disasters.

I have noted that: [Temporarily, 19th century mining disasters have been omitted, and 1900-1950 mining disasters have been omitted except where fatalities exceeded 100.] -- this is for sake of clarity while I do further research. There are very many mine disasters, eg:

• 325 ?? - Prince of Wales Colliery mining disaster, Abercarn 11 September 1878
• 281 - Albion Colliery mining disaster, Cilfynydd, 25 June 1894
• 110 - Park Slip mining disaster, 1892
• 82 - Universal Colliery mining disaster, Senghenydd, Caerphilly, 24 May 1901
• 57 - Ferndale Colliery, Tylorstown mining disaster, 28 January 1896
• 52 - Marine Colliery mining disaster, Cwm, Monmouthshire, 1 March 1927

--mervyn 17:17, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Cause of death per year.

Accidents like road accidents occur in ones and twos and would never appear on this list ... could we have a section for cause of death per year which might list the total number of various kinds of accidents per year to help put things in perspective?

[edit] Cause of Death per Year

• • 1234 Road Accident
  • 456 Drownings
  • 30 Slipped on Banana Skin.

Tabletop 09:45, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

You could certainly create a new list on that basis, something like "List of UK fatalities by cause of death". This particular list is quite tightly defined as "a list of major disasters (excluding acts of war) which occurred in the United Kingdom or involved UK citizens, in a definable incident... so I don't think it would be appropriate as a section here. --mervyn 08:55, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Smaller disasters

The current artificial cut-off point of 40 excludes a number of significant disasters, a rough list might be as follows:

Other notable disasters

• 39 – BOAC Comet 1 G-ALYP accident, 1954
• 39 – Heysel Stadium disaster, Heysel Stadium, 29 May 1985
• 38 – HMS Albion launch disaster, Thames Iron Works, 1898
• 38 or 25 ??? – French destroyer Maillé-Brézé sunk by own torpedoes, Tail of the Bank, Greenock, Scotland, 30 April 1940
• 36 – SS Ellan Vannin shipwreck, Liverpool Bay, 3 - 4 December 1909
• 35 – Clapham Junction rail crash, 12 December 1988
• 34 – Shipton-on-Cherwell train crash, 24 December 1874
• 34 – Lynmouth flood, 15-16 August, 1952
• 34 – KLM Constellation air disaster 1948
• 33 – Abergele train disaster, 20 August 1868
• 33 – Burnden Park disaster, football stadium panic, Bolton, 9 March 1946
• 32 – River Dee Ferry Boat Disaster, between Torry and Aberdeen, 5 April 1876
• 32 – HMS K13, sank in Gareloch, 19 January 1917
• 31 – Kings Cross fire, 18 November 1987
• 31 – Ladbroke Grove rail crash, 5 October 1999
• 29 – Chinook Helicopter Crash (1994), 2 June 1994, Mull of Kintyre
• 28 – Southport and St Anne's lifeboats disaster, 9 December 1886
• 28 – King David Hotel bombing, Jerusalem, 22 July 1946 [28 British fatalities out of 91]
• 28 – Flixborough disaster chemical explosion, Lincolnshire, 1 June 1974
• 27 – BEA Vickers Viking G-AJDL crash, Belfast-Nutts Corner Airport, 5 January 1953 [1] (worst air disaster in Northern Ireland)
• 26 – First Ibrox disaster, Glasgow, 5 April 1902
• 23 – Louth storm, Louth, Lincolnshire, 29 May 1920
• 23 – Munich air disaster, 6 February 1958
• 23 – Great Storm of 1987
• 22 – Waco Siege, Waco, Texas, 28 February 1993 [22 of 74 fatalities were British nationals]
• 22 – Clarkston gas explosion, Clarkston, Glasgow, 21 October 1971
• 22 – British European Airways Flight "Bealine 411" operated by Vickers Viscount 701 G-ALWE – crash on approach to Manchester Airport, 14 March 1957 (20 occupants plus 2 ground fatalities).
• 22 – British U class submarine HMS Umpire (N82), sank after surface collision with trawler, 19 July 1941
• 21 – Stotfield fishing disaster, Moray Firth, 25 December 1806
• 21 – Morecambe Bay cockling disaster 2004, Morecambe Bay, 5 February 2004 (21 Chinese cocklers noted in manslaughter trial, 2 other bodies not recovered)
• 20 – Sikorsky S-61 disaster 1983 en route to Isles of Scilly, 16 July 1983
• 18 – Dunblane massacre disaster [fatalities incl. perpetrator]
• 18 – Markham Colliery disaster, Derbyshire, 31 July 1973
• 17 – Hungerford massacre [fatalities incl. perpetrator]
• 17 – Fastnet race disaster, 1979
• 16 – Great Fire of London, 2 September to 5 September 1666
• 16 – Penlee lifeboat disaster, 18 December 1981
• 14 – 1928 Thames flood, London, January 1928
• 14 – death of Prince George, Duke of Kent and aircrew (1 survivor) in Short Sunderland aircrash near Dunbeath, Caithness, 25 August 1942
• 13 – Baldock Beer Disaster, 14 March 1904
• 13 – torpedo explosion on board HMS Sidon (P259), Portland Harbour, 16 June 1955
• 12 – Taunton train fire, 6 July 1978
• 11 – European windstorm "Kyrill", 18 January 2007 [UK deaths only]
• 11 – HMS A1, sunk by RMS Berwick Castle, Solent, 18 March 1904; Royal Navy's first fatal submarine loss
• 10 – Staplehurst rail crash, Charles Dickens survives, 9 June 1865
• 10 – SS City of Brussels (Inman Line) (3,747 tons) sank at entrance to the River Mersey in 1883 after collision in fog with SS Kirby Hall, Liverpool Bay, 7 January 1883
• 10 – railway accident, Bere Ferrers railway station, Devon, 24 September 1917
• 7 – St Ives RNLI lifeboat disaster, 23 January 1939
• 6 – The Great Thunderstorm, Widecombe-in-the-Moor, Devon, 21 October 1638
• 6 – Pye Nest tram disaster near Halifax, 15 October 1907
• 6 – Avro Vulcan air crash, Malta, 14 October 1975 (5 of 7 RAF crew plus 1 Maltese civilian killed, 20 injured)
• 5 – Big Dipper (Roller coaster) accident Battersea Park, 30 May 1972
• 3 – Dogger Bank incident - 3 trawlermen killed by Russian Baltic Fleet, 1904

--mervyn 11:27, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Mining disasters

I've removed the note about mining disasters as we have at least one in the list, and there is no reason for them not to be here unless someone feels that there are so many there should be a separate list? Thryduulf 11:11, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Have completed listing of mining disasters for 20th century -- some bigger 19th c disaasters are listed, but not complete yet for this period mervyn 16:20, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Empress of Ireland

Should the Empress of Ireland be on this list? She was owned by the Canadian Pacific, so she was not a British ship. As she was sailing for Liverpool many of her passengers would have been British, but how many? Do we have figures for the no. of British casualties in other major sinkings involving non-British ships? PatGallacher 12:25, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

A good point, am not that familiar with this ship, so could do with further research. However, probably enough Brits to justify it being included here. Like many other entries, probably needs some qualification, but I tend to think that explanations about precise lists of dead etc. are best left to the main disaster article link, with this list serving as a quick pointer with a few notes where needed. mervyn 20:14, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Removed. Neither a British ship, nor an event in British waters. Eclecticology 06:19, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

But Empress of Ireland might still validly be listed based on the large number of British casualties. No figures are available that I can trace, so may be best to leave her out pending clarification. --mervyn 15:51, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] table

this page would look better in a table

86.141.159.71 18:28, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Its certainly worth copying a section of it to a temporary page to see how it will look. If you register as a user then you can do this as a subpage of your userpage. I'm converting List of London Underground stations into table format - User:Thryduulf/List of London Underground stations in table format. I started out doing the A section to get the table right, etc. and see what others thought of it. As it was agreed it looks nice I'm in the process of converting all of it - but its a bigger job than you might think (I've only done A-L so far!). Thryduulf 19:41, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

It may benefit, but am not sure. List of disasters in Australia by death toll works as a table because it is much shorter, and includes primary info and references. This list is much longer, and mainly serves as a link list to lead people to the relevant disaster article, so may be overcomplicating it to change it into a table. But yes, may be worth trying a temp page if someone wants a go??? mervyn 20:24, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I've set up a page in my userspace where I've put the first section into table format. See User:Thryduulf/List of United Kingdom disasters by death toll (table). I'll not do any more until I've received comments on whether people think the table format is good, and/or if anything should be changed. Also, feel free to experiment there youselves. Thryduulf 16:28, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Many thanks for your work on this. It looks good. Am still not sure, but I think I prefer the existing list. It's purely a personal thing, but for me the linear list seems less "intimidating" than a table. Purely personal, I will look again, and let's see what others think. mervyn 19:12, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sweating sickness

I wanted to add sweating sickness to this list, but I'm having problems with its placement. Thousands of britons died in the 1485 outbreak alone, and in 1517 some towns lost a third to a half of their inhabitants to it, etc, etc .... But with quite vague figures like this (and a lot more references simply to "many" and "multitudes" of people dying) I don't know where or how exactly to incorporate it into this list. fabiform 11:31, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for mentioning this ... Yes I think a ref should go in -- always difficult to quantify these early historical figures. Let's follow the main article sweating sickness which says "it killed several thousand people" -- detailed discussion and refinement of fataliites can continue there. --mervyn 19:46, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Herald of Free Enterprise

Considering this incident took place just outside the Port of Zeebruge in Dutch territorial waters, does it really belong in a list of United Kingdom disasters, the only link this disaster has with the UK is that a number of British citizens perished in the disaster and the ship belonged to a British company. I would suggest this entry be removed as it did not take place within the UK and is therefore not a UK disaster in the traditional sense. JonEastham 22:29, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

The List follows the definition given in the intro ... "which occurred in the United Kingdom or involved UK citizens" ... and so, like Titanic, a disaster anywhere involving a British ship with British passengers would be considered relevant. --mervyn 22:48, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 9/11 and 7/7

I don't think they should be included as they were premeditated attacks and if they are included then surely various IRA and WWI and WWII attacks should be included. --Ebz 11:53, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

The rationale is that "acts of war" are specifically excluded, but acts of terrorism are not acts of war and so are relevant to be included as "disasters". Hope that makes sense. --mervyn 13:21, 11 December 2006 (UTC)