Talk:List of books with the subtitle "Virtue Rewarded"

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This article was nominated for deletion on 9 November 2006. The result of the discussion was Keep.

• I can perform the move to Virtue Rewarded if there is a consensus for it and the article intro is changed accordingly. ~ trialsanderrors 11:42, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

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Crossposted to User talk:Gdr

Contents 1 Growth 2 Lead section 3 Layout 4 Pictures 5 Note on obscurity 6 Note on tabular version 7 Yikes! Found three more! 8 I liked the verbose one better 9 A couple of rejected list candidates 10 Sebastian 11 candidates

[edit] Growth

Very cool to have the list go from four to seven, thanks, Gdr! It's looking almost respectable now. :-) I have moved one item to keep it chronological, changed the year for Rochelle to 1967, as on the author's own website (and yes, it is apparently a novel).
I've left Anon., The History of Constantius and Pulchera, or Virtue Rewarded (novel, 1801) as is, though I have some doubts about it. According to this doctoral dissertation, it should be The History of Constantius and Pulchera; or, Constancy Rewarded: An American Novel (1794), which would take it off the list altogether. Maybe you could tell me your source? Best wishes, and thanks very much for adding to this scholarly resource! ;-)--[[User:Bishonen|Bishonen (talk)]] 17:33, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I found it on [1]. I think you're right, it's probably a mistake. Gdr 17:41, 2004 Dec 17 (UTC)

Right. Wow, I can't believe it was "enormously popular" and reprinted 11 times! That's not a patch on Pamela, of course, but still. Maybe you want to start a List of books with the subtitle "Constancy Rewarded", to do justice to it?--[[User:Bishonen|Bishonen (talk)]] 18:00, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I think it is inaccurate to call several plays and a poem books. (and is the last one a dissertation? on melancholy and rewarding virtue?) Suggest a move to list of literary works with the subtitle "Virtue Rewarded"... Tuf-Kat 20:21, Jun 2, 2005 (UTC)

I've had the same thought, I'll think about the move you suggest. The last one isn't a dissertation, it's a textbook about writing dissertations. (I. e. it's not a literary work.) The plays were all published in stand-alone editions (=books). The dodgiest "book" is the handmade manuscript, uh, "book" containing the poem by Elizabeth Barrett. Bishonen | talk 22:43, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

So the Book of Kells isn't a book? There is a long and noble tradition of holograph books. I've done one myself (which may, of course, mark the end of that tradition!). Filiocht | Blarneyman 12:51, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)

I make a note here of the fuller names of the authors of the textbook: Stanley J. Cook, William John Sullivan (born 1937), and Fred S. Moramarco (born 1938). Info from http://library.utulsa.edu. --Bishonen | talk 22:43, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Lead section

A nice explanation of the significance of the subtitle would be good. Especially as it emerged in the non-virtuous Restoration and a discussion of Richardson's use of it (maybe contrasted with the Anti-Pamela and Shamela?). Filiocht | Blarneyman 14:05, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, it would, but how to get "albeit" in there? And Shakey used them, and even made fun of them, like Twelfth Night or What You Will—lookey here. Maybe also a reference to poetic justice, do you think? Vice punished, virtue rewarded, Lear lives, Edward and Cordelia get married, Dr Johnson likes, short list, long lead. Bishonen | talk 15:57, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Non-virtuous?! How dare you call an age dominated by Puritans non-virtuous! Besides, I think it was the fact that virtue goes so often begging by the side of the road that prompted these people to try to write of the few occasions when she gets rich and married and happy. Geogre 18:39, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Layout

Much less ugly now; nice work Bish. I freely admit that mine was an ugly brute of a layout concept. Filiocht | Blarneyman 14:06, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Pictures

As hesitant as I am to edit anything touched by the Ancient and Most Noble Order of Wikipedian Literati (or "the usual suspects", as I prefer to call them), the illustrations accompanying this most erudite list seem to be mere symptoms of picturitis, a dreaded disease that has befallen much of Wikipedia.

In short: the pictures add nothing. No, not even the one that shows the subtitle on the cover—perhaps especially not that one, as it's trying too hard. I've ditched 'em. This is not to say you can't revert, of course—I know how much these things are based on personal preference. However, I dare anyone to assert that pictures are saying more than a thousand words here, as the saying goes. Or actually even more than two words. JRM · Talk 21:34, 2005 Jun 16 (UTC)

restoring the lost pictures: one is referenced in text, even! Yes, I missed that. Which just goes to show you that the descriptions in this list are needlessly verbose. Then again, this is a list (so nobody cares) and it's a short list (so you can spend as much elaborating on individual items as you wish). JRM · Talk 10:21, 2005 Jun 23 (UTC)

I don't agree that a flawed mental process in one reader (=your missing what was in the text) is good evidence of redundancy. It's too subjective. With regard to "needlessly verbose", what's your criterion for needfulness? Shouldn't you be asking what need or purpose this list fulfills at all, before characterizing any aspect of it as over-ample (or adequate, or skimpy)? C'mon, it's a list of works with the subtitle "Virtue Rewarded"! Did you miss that part? Don't call it verbose, VfD it! Bishonen | talk 13:37, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Reformulate: the picture added nothing with or without the hook in the text; the text in turn describing the picture adds nothing. "Shouldn't you be asking what need or purpose this list fulfills at all?" Why, no. As you said, it's a list of works with the subtitle "Virtue Rewarded". It presumably serves the purpose of amusing, informing and dare I say titillating those who for some reason or other are interested in the curious set of works that share this distinction. One might as well ask what purpose list of songs whose title does not appear in the lyrics serves! "Purpose" is the last refuge of the list that dares not dream, to coin a phrase.

For sure, the addition of some choice images to lend artistic verisimilitude to an otherwise... but no, let me not stoop this low. Instead, let me express the admittedly very personal opinion that even to those with a greater than average interest in the topic of this list, the pictures do not contribute to establishing a broader context or a deeper understanding to the narrative. Personal, yes! As you well know. The suggestion, then, that I should be inclined to take my argument to some sort of zealotous culmination in the form of a VfD I cannot take as anything but an insult, even if only a mild one. JRM · Talk 14:54, 2005 Jun 23 (UTC)

One might as well ask what purpose list of songs whose title does not appear in the lyrics serves? Indeed, and why not? One should ask that question. Meaningless lists all belong on VfD, List of books with the subtitle "Virtue Rewarded" marching at their head, under the banner "I disrupt Wikipedia to prove a point!" Stoop as low as you like, because you haven't been insulted yet, you miserable inclusionist! Bishonen | talk 16:00, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Fan those flames ever higher! Wikipedia is not paper, but we've got lots of stuff to burn! JRM · Talk 19:24, 2005 Jun 23 (UTC)

• I think the synopsis of Irish Hospitality, or, Virtue Rewarded is POV, and hints that the play is dull, is this an academically accepted description of the play or the author's POV? Giano | talk 29 June 2005 19:31 (UTC)

• Giano, my POV may well be identical to consensus among those who have read the play in the past 100 years. I mean, I suspect I'm the only one who did. And why do you suppose it's not known to ever have been acted? In fact, if the synopsis merely hints, I think I'll go in and say it's dull.Bishonen | talk 29 June 2005 20:26 (UTC)

[edit] Note on obscurity

I have to say that the hunt for information about the more obscure works on the list isn't going well. :-( David Slavitt's website mentioned above isn't up any more, and Google can't find any even remotely worthwhile information about his Rochelle, or, Virtue Rewarded. Elizabeth Barrett Browning's juvenile poem "Sebastian, or, Virtue Rewarded" turns out to be so inordinately little-known that it's not mentioned in Margaret Forster's biography from 1988, nor in the monographs by Stott/Avery (2003) and Stone (1995), nor even in the early diary of EBB, ed. Berridge (1974), which I had high hopes for. I give up. AFAIC, there will be no synopsis or description of those two, and most likely not of Tarver, Phelps, or Cook et. al. either. Anybody got anything? Bishonen | talk 6 July 2005 19:43 (UTC)

There's something of a synopsis of the Slavitt here (Google cache, so may disappear), but I wouldn't rely on it. OpenToppedBus - Talk to the driver 15:43, September 8, 2005 (UTC)

A small synopsis of Phelps here, though probably not enough to include anything in this list and certainly not to create its own article. OpenToppedBus - Talk to the driver 15:55, September 8, 2005 (UTC)

Ha! I paste the entire synopsis here:

Sir Jasper, of the black heart, is out to win Lady Lucre's fortune by marrying lovely Arabella. Clarence, of the pure heart, is out to thwart him and also win Arabella. Through valleys of iniquity they all travel, the journey being enlivened by the wiles of the voluptuous Fanny, who of course aids and abets Sir Jasper. Virtue is triumphant at the last and Clarence and Arabella are united over the dead bodies of their enemies.

To my mind, that has the stamp of authority, even if not dry-as-dust academic authority. I certainly will use it in the list: it's beggars we are, not choosers. OTOH, using the publisher's blurb for Slavitt (which seems to be cut off halfway in my browser, yet) does amount to scraping the barrel, I guess. The itemization of it in the References section is definitely the worst reference I've typed in my life, but, oh, well. It's something. Thank you very much, Opentoppedbus! Bishonen | talk 10:03, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Note on tabular version

There's a start on a prettytable version, with the item info a click away in stubs, at User:Bishonen/prettytable sandbox. I like having the virtue and the reward entabled. :-) List of appearances of God in fiction should be this systematic! Bishonen | talk 7 July 2005 01:23 (UTC)

Now just kill those red links and get this baby over to WP:FLC. Filiocht | The kettle's on 14:42, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Yikes! Found three more!

Yikes! I've just found three more early 19th-century ones in the British Library Catalogue. This list gets worse, not better, with every redlinked, outrageously obscure, title I feel compelled to add and type a set of questionmarks against. Oh, well, it never did fulfill the Featured List criteria anyway. See how it's not about cricket, Fil, haven't you noticed? Bishonen | talk 17:29, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

I know, I know, but we need to balance those cricket freaks somehow. Filiocht | The kettle's on 07:26, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] I liked the verbose one better

Well, I did. The table is funnier like this, but I'm a sucker for whole sentences. Geogre 19:15, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] A couple of rejected list candidates

It turns out that The History of Constantius and Pulchera, or Virtue Rewarded, mentioned at the top of this page, is a catalogue item in the British Library, under that title. I still don't believe it, though; the doctoral dissertation, whose author is likely to have actually have inspected a copy, is surely a better source, so in the absence of other evidence I'm going to assume the subtitle is really "Constancy Rewarded". I have also rejected The Lover’s Strategem [sic], or Virtue Rewarded, also from the BL catalogue, where it's labelled as a "Doubtful or Supposititious" [sic] play by John Dryden (yeah, riiight, real likely). It only exists in an Italian critical edition from 1952. Literally only. There's no other, let alone first, edition in the English Short Title Catalogue, the Library of Congress, or the British Library. I realize the Italian edition must have had a source to work from, but am reduced to supposing that there might be a single, perhaps manuscript, perhaps chewed on by a goat, copy in the library of some somnolent Sicilian palazzo. We have to draw the line somewhere. For the relevant years, I'm going to draw it at the ESTC. Bishonen | talk 22:27, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Awww man, and here I was feeling all smart 'cause I found History of Constantius... in the Library of Congress catelogue. Oh well. What about this title also found the the LOC:

Ray Logie

Princess and the trolls; & Virtue rewarded

1980

That was fun though. I wonder what I will find in OCLC.  :-) Did I mention that I'm studying Library and Information Science???--*Kat* 08:51, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sebastian

Wow, Wikipedia really does have anything. Anyway, I take a little issue with the Barrett Browning "Sebastian" poem. Aside from the fact that she was nine years old, calling it a "book" is very much a stretch, and all that, I question whether the poem really is subtitled "Virtue Rewarded." The subtitle looks to me to be very clearly crossed out, doesn't it? [2] zafiroblue05 | Talk 00:51, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, it looks crossed out to me, to. But for us to decide that it shouldn't properly be called "Sebastian, or Virtue Rewarded" because it looks crossed out would be original research, y'know. That's not allowed. You'd have to find some authoritative source to cite. Preferably more authoritative than, ahem, the New York Public Library... because that's where the subtitled title comes from.[3] Bishonen | talk 01:42, 22 September 2006 (UTC).

[edit] candidates

TABLE NAME author title pub genre located at/found through Anon Charlotte and Francis: or, Virtue Rewarded Children's Lit--Conduct for life; Christain literature for children 18?? OCLC has two copies of this book on record: One is at California Polytechnic State University. The other is in Rochester, New York, at a library called Strong Mus Tomas Gent The trepan: or virtue rewarded: an opera. Ballad opera 27 New York, Garland, 1974. OCLC/University of York Library. Irish hospitality, or, virtue rewarded : a comedy. 1733 Ohio University OK Now I'm going to bed.