Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/Archive 1

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Yes, I think that if someone is openly espousing some of these extremist positions, it's fair to say he's been called a fascist by many. Don't water it down. JG

---

This article has been cited as a source or otherwise recommended by the mainstream press. See Wikipedia:Wikipedia as a press source for details.

I'm not sure this is really relevant to the article but I had the surprise this evening of seeing billboards promoting Larouche's campaign for presidency in my very own street! _R_ 02:47, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Erm... maybe you won't find this so surprising unless I tell you that I live in Paris (yes, the original one, in France) !

---

I have been removing a lot of the stuff about fascism, because I think the point of this article should be to describe the man, his life, and his ideals, not to classify them. To that end, citations and 'further readings' would be much appreciated. DanKeshet 23:08, Jan 30, 2004 (UTC)

I don't understand a lot of what LaRouche says; he emailed me once, after I asked him to simply and concisely outline his political agenda; but he didn't do that. Lirath Q. Pynnor

---

Discussion of fascism are actually quite helpful in understanding LaRouche Andylehrer 01:38, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)

--- 172.197.219.19 I think the fact that Larouche's organization is cult-like is the most important fact that anyone should know. Larouche's philosophies are interesting, and should be dealt with, but the only reason they are important is because of his impact on people's lives, both in the present and the past. This is an organization that convinces people to drop out of college and pretty much not visit their friends any more because they believe that disaster is imminent (and they must work every day to change the course of history). Put aside whatever ideals the group espouses; the way it uses people and attempts to completely change their world views is what makes this group evil. Members are of course convinced that they truly believe in these ideals, that Larouche is a genius, that his prophecies are always accurate, etc.; regardless of whether many of Larouche's ideas are accurate or not, the group is a threat to free thought because of the implicit control it has over its members. I speak from some experience

---

Moved from the "Accusations of fascism" section of the article:

• "When people judge political movements, some look at proclamations and theory, not at actions, while others pay close attention to actions and not to theory or statements. Many do not take the necessary step of comparing words to actions. The LaRouche organization is primarily recruited out of the personality types associated with political cults; leaders (intellectuals, talkers) and followers (believers, listeners). LaRouche's approach to the intellectuals has been to invent a theory and method which would captivate their minds and set them upon a course of thinking and viewing the world which can only confirm the statements and ideas of LaRouche."

This seems to be irrelevant and pov speculation about people's motives and the personality types of LaRouche's followers.

• "However, after the rise of Hitler and the alliance with Nazi Germany, the Fascists and Mussolini were compelled to adopt Germany's racial hygiene laws and help with the Holocaust."

I don't think this is relevant.

• "LaRouche separates himself from classical fascism and totalitarianism on the one hand, but to also create a theory which is consistent with the premise of fascism since function dictates form; LaRouche requires the same function from his theory as classical fascism has, and so this dictates the form."

What does this mean? I don't think this adds anything to the arguments that LaRouche is a fascist. Wmahan 17:38, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Lar's theories are absurdly complicated, but he says over and over again that he's opposed to fascism, so if he's accused of fascism then we have to show how his overall philosophy contradicts his statements. Anything we can put down in this article to make sense of Lar's philosophies is a good thing, in my book, because it's really easy to get lost in them. I don't understand your confusion. This is basically responding to a possible argument that Lar's philosophies aren't based on traditional fascist philosophers and therefore can't be fascist. There was a whole other section below this...IMO this article has too many opinions, too many maybes, too many people editing it in contradictory ways. it's a morass. wiki is a failed concept. Vaketer

Thanks for the clarification. I have no problem with moving the part about fascism back into the article. Perhaps it could be reworded to include the context that you describe above, namely how LaRouche's beliefs allegedly bely his public claims. I prefer to think of this page not as a demonstration of wiki's failures, but that a good article takes time, because it is still be in flux. By editing the page you've helped improve it, so thanks. :-) Wmahan. 18:52, 2004 Apr 9 (UTC)

Jesus christ. some fool with too much time on their hands got rid of the useful link, to the Age article about the CEC trying to psychologically break down its members, and added useless links. Freaking fools. Edit, edit, edit, it doesn't matter if it makes sense. Or if you know what you're doing. Deleting the link is royally stupid. (vak)

I moved the section below out of "cult accusations", because it has no relevance to "cult accusations", and seems to me to be another case of pov speculation. The LaRouche youth on campus also denounce the colleges for wretched academic standards. It is important to keep in mind the distinction between Wikipedia and USENET. --Herschelkrustofsky 19:43, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

• "Members of the Larouche student movement can sometimes be seen on college campuses, where they badger students to drop out of school and join the movement. Their logic is as follows: the US is about to go through a second Great Depression; if this is true, then you will not have a job when you graduate; if this is true, then there is no point in graduating; therefore, drop out of school and become one of us."

cult, fascist allegations

I am a college student in Seattle, and I have been approached on numerous occasions by campaigners for the LaRouche Movement. I found (and still find) their ideas very intriguing, such as developing a global peace and economic recovery based on building up infrastructure in third-world countries. But whenever I discussed LaRouche with friends or acquaintences, those who had heard of him all told a similar story that he's a fascist demagogue, and his followers are some kind of cult. When I searched the internet I found several references to this in pages such as www.publiceye.org[1], but the allegations in this website were so starkly contrary to Larouche's own recorded statements and the impressions that I picked up in my own experience with the organization, that I remained skeptical of both sides.

I have attended several meetings with the LaRouche Youth Movement, and have found the description given here to be failry accurate. Most of the meetings (that I attended) were spent discussing classical art and philosophy, as well as pre-Euclidian Geometry and the complex domain. I found that most of the members spent the majority of their time on the campaign, and many did indeed live together, and held meetings in their homes. However, I found very little indication of cult-like behavior, and didn't feel at all as though I was being brainwashed. I did encounter numerous conspiracy theories that our current regime is based on British oligarchical banking institutions that had ties with Nazi Germany, but many of their accusations don't seem that farfetched to me. (see The Carlyle Group [2])

The thing that concerned me was the lack of solid, third-party analysis of Larouche and his organization. There is extensive literature available in Larouche's 2004 campaign webite [3], as well as that of the Youth Movement [4], the Executive Intelligence Eeview (LaRouche's own newsletter)[5], and the Schiller Institue (founded by Larouche's wife, Helga Zepp LaRouhe)[6]. But I wanted to find information from other sources that either confirme, or cridible contradicted what he said in his own publications. I found that many of the allegations featured in www.publiceye.org reference his conviction of loan fraud, but as is demonstrated in his own literature as well as here, this was pretty much unfounded. I greatly appreciate the article here, because it gives an accurate and even-handed assessment of the accusations against the organization, as well as their rebuttals.

I still have not dismissed entirely the accusations of "cult-like" behavior in the organization just becaue I don't feel confident that I could identify it myself. But the accusations of being a "fascist demagague" and an anti-semite and homophobe I believe are unfounded. I'm not convinced that he is the sole savior of the United States and the world economy (as he does seem to egotistically claim), but I would support him as a candidate for presidency a lot more than John Kerry... and he may be able to help us recover from Georde W. Bush.

--Phlict 10:01, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Chip Berlet of Public Eye, PRA et al has pretty much served as a poison-pen-for-hire, whoring himself out to very powerful establishment figures like Richard Mellon Scaife. Unfortunately, most English language coverage of LaRouche is not much different; there is little criticism or analysis of LaRouche, only invective --- which ought to pique one's curiosity. People complain that LaRouche is difficult to understand, but if you want to learn about him, there is no subsitute for reading what he says.--Herschelkrustofsky 11:16, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

That's reassuring to hear, because it felt way to much like a smear campaign. The more I read od LaRouch'es own writings, the more I am convinced his ideas have merit, even if they're a bit hard to grasp at first glance.

I pulled the following from an article found in the Architecture of Modern Political Power website [7] It's a pretty huge archive of past news articles with occastional commentary by the author of the site. The article i'm referencing talks about farious conspiracy theorists in the US, and can be found about 2/3rds down (just search the page for LaRouche and you'll see it)

"For anyone who wants to figure out what LaRouche is talking about, it is necessary to be conversant with esoterica concerning Freemasonry, the Knights of Malta, and British imperialism. The alternative is to see all of the above as code words for Jews, and LaRouche's enemies -- namely Chip Berlet, Dennis King, and the Anti-Defamation League -- tend to take this easy way out. I don't believe that right-wing globalist conspiracy theories in general, or LaRouche's theories in particular, can be dismissed by claiming that they are disguised anti-Semitism -- that is to say, code-word versions of the old international Jewish banking conspiracies."

from April-June 1993, by Daniel Brandt at Public Information Research

I hope I'm not taking too much space here... I'm new to Wiki so I'm not too sure of the conventions yet

--Phlict 23:11, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)--Phlict

Rewrite

This article is almost entirely LaRouche propaganda and needs to be completely rewritten. Adam 04:54, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Not sure what's been going on - last I checked in on it a few months ago it was very anti-LaRouche, all but accusing him of being a lunatic fascist...with all these anons, it's hard to figure out who's doing what - I imagine Herschel Krustofsky's been doing a lot of whitewashing, though. john k 05:38, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I actually don't find that version much better, although I agree it is less LaRouchie in tone. What is needed is a straight biography, with some commentary on his opinions and the charges made against him. Adam 06:46, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm not a huge fan of that version, either. Anti-LaRouche POVing is only decent by comparison with pro-LaRouche POVing. john k 03:29, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

That's what I have tried to provide. I left all the charges intact -- it is certainly true that LaR has been accused of everything under the sun, and it is duly noted in my version. But to treat the charges as fact, with no documentation whatsoever, reduces Wikipedia to a propaganda organ. The article as presently reverted provides no information whatsoever as to what LaRouche actually says or does, so the reader is left with the impression that he is some mysterious guy with no policy or activity, whom everybody hates. Consequently, I am reverting to my version, with some modifications, and if John Kenney wants to take it to Wikipedia:Requests for mediation, I am certainly amenable. --Herschelkrustofsky 10:54, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I have no interest in mediation, and only very limited interest in this article. john k 03:29, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

They weren't just "charges," he was convicted of fraud by the courts, and the 15-year sentence shows that his offence was a very serious one. The article should reflect that, and not write it all off as some sort of conspiracy against LaRouche. Adam 11:08, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

By "charges", I meant the characterizations of being left wing, right wing, etc. However, my version of the "Criminal Record" section actually reports what he was convicted of, unlike the other version. And the fact that his case was regarded, around the world, as a human rights scandal, should not be swept under the rug in Wikipedia.--Herschelkrustofsky 11:13, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I'm afraid that last comment gives you away, Herschel. Only LaRouchies regarded it as a scandal. Everyone else regarded it as a richly deserved punishment for a thief and swindler. Adam 01:02, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Yup... john k 03:29, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The list of signators on the exoneration ads (which were run in the NYT and WaPo) is very long, indeed. The excerpted signators in the article are from only those at the level of heads of state and cabinet officials. Maybe I should post a link to the entire list, which includes several hundred American State Representatives, County Commissioners, Mayors, Civil Rights leaders, artists and musicians, and so on. This case is better known than the two of you think.

The fact of the matter is, I have documented everything I have added to the article. I have left untouched many accusations against LaRouche, for which no documentation is offered. The version that John reverted to states, about 8 times, that "many leftist groups call LaRouche a fascist." That may well be true, but in the interests of upholding Wikipedia's standards, don't you think that it would be useful to name at least one? And Chip Berlet hardly qualifies as a leftist group; he is a cottage industry, living off foundation money.--Herschelkrustofsky 06:13, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The NCLC, however, obtained a document through the Freedom of Information Act, which tells a different story: it is a memo from the FBI station head in New York City, written to national headquarters on November 23, 1973. It states that infiltrators had been successfully placed in the leadership of the CPUSA, who had convinced the party heads that their problems could be solved by the "physical elimination of LaRouche."

I was just handed some of LaRouche's materials by his people on the way to lunch today and even his own materials don't support this charge. Nowhere does it say that FBI infiltrators have convinced the leaders of the CPUSA to eliminate Larouche. It does note that there is a lot of talk in the CPUSA, including in their newspaper, of eliminating (doesn't use the term "physical elimination") LaRouche and that the FBI could perhaps place articles in the CPUSA newspaper to help continue to cause problems.

I looked into this, and found that the formulation in the article was indeed inaccurate, so I replaced it with more accurate formulation. --Herschelkrustofsky 20:13, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

No-one who knows anything about the history of American communism could believe such a fantsy for two seconds. The CPUSA, like all orthodox communist parties, opposed assassination and all other forms of individualist violence, which they regarded as an anarchist deviation from the Leninist line. In any case by the 1970s the CPUSA was a dwindling band of aged romantics who could not have physically eliminated a fly. Adam 04:29, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I'm sure that they had an official stand against assassination and violence, but most groups that engage in that sort of thing will officially deny it. As far as them being aged romantics, they probably also had their share of FBI agents provocateurs, just like the right wing groups.--Herschelkrustofsky 20:13, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

That's the problem with trying to debate with conspiracy nuts: there is always another layer to the conspiracy, so that nothing can ever be refuted. That's why arguing with LaRouchies is futile. The essential problem with this article, particularly after Herschel's edits to it, is that it uncritically reflects LaRouche's view of himself. It should rather reflect the generally held view of LaRouche (which is also the truth): that LaRouche is not a politician or an economist, but rather the leader of a nasty cult, a delusional paranoiac, and a convicted swindler. Adam 23:35, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Adam, clearly you will only be satisfied with a Chip Berlet-style smear, and there are a handful of those in the external links. The material I have added is either factual, and documented -- or, in the rare sections where I do reference LHL's view of himself, it is to contrast it to what his opponents say about him (such as in the "Theory of Great Men" section). You are evidently accustomed to reading the output of Berlet -- or perhaps of the John Birch Society, depending on your left-vs-right orientation. If I report that Gene McCarthy likes LaRouche, it is not wishful thinking. I can provide links to interviews with Gene if that would mollify you. But I suspect that you have little interest in the actual LaRouche, preferring a mythological bogeyman. Wikipedia is not the place for mythology.--Herschelkrustofsky 00:19, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)

It certainly isn't the place for cultish pro-LaRouche mythology, either. As to Gene McCarthy, he's always been a strange man, and has only gotten stranger over the years...at any rate, Adam, you'll note, has not been advocating a return to the earlier version of the page (nor have I, particularly). He's been advocating a rewrite. I would agree with you that the version here before you started was pretty bad. I would just disagree that your changes made any improvement - they just substituted anti-LaRouche POV for pro-LaRouche POV. At least anti-LaRouche POV has the advantage of being the generally accepted view of LaRouche. john k 02:05, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I actually don't know who Chip Berlet is. My main source on LaRouche is Lyndon LaRouche and the New American Fascism by Dennis King. Adam 02:28, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)