Talk:Michelle Kwan

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Contents 1 Quotes 2 The Simpsons 3 Possible copyright problems 4 Biography 5 Torrance 6 the first paragraph 7 The most decorated U.S. Figure skater 8 Categories 9 Kwan's Chinese name 10 The Best and deserves a gold medal for all her hard work 11 Someone is a little creepy with the Trivia section 12 Tone 13 Non-encyclopedic content 14 Users Not Allowing Edits 15 Good article? 16 Kwan's competitive history 17 Expansion of the infobox 18 Olympic, World, and National Results on the side of the page 19 GAC 20 Trivia 21 Awards and accolades 22 GAC Part 2 23 Sources 24 Streamlining the Article

[edit] Quotes

• The following quote: "I want to be the best, so I'm trying my hardest and if I'm going to be the best I must try my best." was entered by user:207.30.145.6 on April 20, 2005. ( I changed im to I'm on April 22).

• It seems like a reasonable quote but it replaces a quote by the same editor "I hate Tara Lipinski.-Kwan

• This anon has made other questionable edits. I can't determine if they were in good faith.

• Can we confirm the authenticity of this quote? RJFJR 16:06, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)

• I think that all qoutes should have references to them showing where and when she was qouted. Juaquino

[edit] The Simpsons

I've added in the part where Michelle Kwan is a guest in the Simpsons in the Trivia Section and added a picture. Laska 04:18, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

This is a terrible written biography. She is one of the greatest female figure skaters of all time and arguably the best. I don't know who wrote this article but it sounds like they hate her. I read the last guys comment about the 1st para being written by a pr guy .... you should take a look at Tara Lipinski's page, it's full of self-promotion.

This is supposed to be a nuetral article not to promote her but to provide some objectivity. I do not blame her for what she has sin.

[edit] Possible copyright problems

• I am not at all certain that the several copyrighted photos on this page are in accordance either with Wikipedia's policy on non-free image content, or with the usage policy on the photographer's web site that is linked. In particular, there is no indication that these photos have been licensed under the GFDL. Can one of the copyright policy gurus straighten this out? Dr.frog 23:46, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Biography

For the RECORD, the 1994 nat. title was stripped from Harding. You don't win by default.

[edit] Torrance

She is originally from Torrance, California. And those quotes belong in Wikiquote, with one of those little boxes that says, "Wikiquote has a collection of quotes from or about...", unless the quote can be worked into the article somehow.--Rockero 22:04, 17 November 2005 (UTC

[edit] the first paragraph

sounds like it was written by her PR guy.

Too many comparisons intended to put her in the best light. Encyclopedias should never provide evaluative comparisons of facts. The reader should evaluate and compare on his own, to form his own point of view.

I agree. I've brought it back to the facts and removed the POV tag. Coffee 16:29, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The most decorated U.S. Figure skater

Michelle Kwan is not 'one of the most decorated U.S. Figure Skaters in U.S. history. She is "the most decorated figure skater in U.S. history." Check out the U.S. Figure Skating Association's website: http://www.usfigureskating.org/AthleteBio.asp?id=2267

[edit] Categories

The categories listed her as Category:Figure skaters at the 2006 Winter Olympics but not 1994. I added 1994, someone took it right back out. Now I'm taking out 2006. She was at both Olympics, 1994 and 2006. If it was felt that she does not belong in the 1994 cat — presumably because she didn't actually compete — then she does not belong in the 2006 cat. Anything else is inconsistent. (My own opinion, FWIW, is that she was at both.) Bill 19:46, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

• Kwan could conceivably belong in the 2006 category since she *was* named to the team and did participate in the opening ceremony and an official practice before she withdrew from the competition. But in 1994, Kwan was present in Norway purely as a spectator. She was not a member of the 1994 Olympic team at any point, was never entered into the competition, was not accredited as an athlete, was not allowed to practice at the event venue, etc. Dr.frog 20:35, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kwan's Chinese name

As far as I know, Kwan doesn't use her Chinese name, so it seems just as irrelevant to an article in English as it would be to include a Cyrillic transliteration of her name. Dr.frog 19:12, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

• You should know better, Kwan's Chinese name is absolutely not a Cyrillic transliteration of her english name. It has nothing to do with Michelle. Most Chinese (Mainland, Hong Kong, Taiwan) people know Kwan by her chinese name. Flycanada 21:22, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

• Well, I expect that most Russian people know Kwan by the Cyrillic transliteration of her name. But that doesn't make it the version of her name that she uses herself, or that is used when writing about her in English. Perhaps this could be moved to the "Trivia" section of the article instead? Dr.frog 01:20, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

• • If what you claimed is true and Kwan really doesn't use her Chinese name, then who made up that Chinese name for her. Kwan Wing Shan is definitely not a phonetic transliteration nor literal translation of Michelle Kwan. Check your claim first. If the Chinese media could find out what her Chinese name is, that means she uses her name at least in the Chinese communities. The Cyrillic transliteration adds no additional information because it is just a transliteration good only for the cyrillic version of wikipedia. She is Chinese American and her Chinese name is valid even for the Cyrillic page. Kowloonese 01:47, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

• • Kwan Wing Shan is Michelle's name in Cantonese. "Guan Yingshan" is how Michelle's Chinese name would be pronounced in Putonghua.

• • • Putonghua is irrelevant for Michelle. Her parents were Cantonese immigrants from Hong Kong. According to some publication, Michelle understands spoken Cantonese though she, like most second generation Chinese Americans, does not speak Chinese fluently. I don't recall reading about her ability to speak or understand putonghua. So if she were to say her own name in "Chinese", it would be in Cantonese, not putonghua. Kowloonese 23:23, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

• Can you cite some references for Kwan using her Chinese name herself? For example, has she used it to sign autographs? And, last time I looked, Michelle Kwan identifies herself as an American, not as Chinese. Dr.frog 02:30, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

• • Her Chinese name is used around the world in all Chinese publication, there are millions of references of the use. The key point is that her Chinese name is not a make-up name like the Cyrillic transliteration. Her Chinese name is a given name and one of her identities at least within her own family. Everyone may call her Michelle, but her grandma may call her "Shan". You cannot erase one of her identities just because you don't use it. If Michelle or her PR agent or her family gave out her Chinese name to the Chinese media, that "IS" official usage. You will not see those usages in English publication because the English press doesn't care or unable to print it. Kowloonese 19:57, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

• • Her chinese name is not made up by Chinese media, it is given by her parents. Most Chinese American have both Chinese name and English name. Kwan as an American skater is clearly stated in the first sentence, nobody intend to identify her as Chinese.FlyCanada 02:55, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Nonsense. What about an article that begins "Abraham ( אַבְרָהָם ) Lincoln... --Wetman 07:57, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Uh...that does not compute. For one, Lincoln was not ethnically Jewish. For another thing, he did not identify with either the Jewish religion or ethnicity. Finally, that would be a transliteration of the English name (or more precisely, the English name is a transliteration of the Hebrew name). "Wing Shan" is not a Mandarin transliteration of "Michelle". (I don't really care how the article turns out, it just really peeves me to see logical fallacies in use.) Johnleemk | Talk 15:07, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

I feel that people here in wikipedia don't understand the difference between nationality and ethnicity. These people think that since Michelle Kwan won some medals for the US, then the medals drained all her Chinese blood. She cannot have her Chinese name because she is American. It is so ridiculous that I start to believe all these are just trolling. Kowloonese 19:26, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it's helpful to accuse everyone who disagrees with you of being a troll. In my case, I'm just asking what evidence there is that Kwan refers to herself using her Chinese name, since (a) I've never seen it used in any English articles about her and (b) this article in Wikipedia is in English. As I suggested before, I think the best way to resolve this tempest in a teapot would be to move the bit about her Chinese name to the "Trivia" section instead of including it at the very top of the article. Dr.frog 21:00, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

In most of the wiki articles, the various identities of the person are either put in the first introductory sentence or in a name INFO box. I don't see why this person's identities must be handled differently as a trivia. Her ethnicity is not trivia. She is a Chinese American, insisting that she is an American is just striping info from the article. If your argument is valid, then no biographical article here should mention any African Americans or Hispanic Americans either. The US is a melting pot of races and ethnicities. Perhaps the only pure Americans are the American Indians. Erasing people ethnicity because of their nationality is bogus. I may add that some people do deny their ethnicity. Perhaps Michael Jackson doesn't want to be classified as African American. For example, when I was in college, I had some Taiwanese classmates who supported an Independent Taiwan and they insisted that Taiwanese were not Chinese. To me, that was another case of confusion of nationality vs. ethnicity to the extreme, perhaps due to a political agenda. As far as I know, Michelle never denies her ethnicity.Kowloonese 23:22, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Nobody is trying to deny that Kwan is of Chinese descent; that's a complete red herring in this discussion. The question is simply whether it is appropriate for her to be identified by a non-English name that she apparently never uses in English contexts, within the context of Wikipedia article in English. Dr.frog 00:47, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Please refer to Chinese_name#Regional_variations, most Chinese-Americans have both an English given name and a Chinese name. I don't see what's the problem here. Every other article here on Wikipedia on a given Chinese-American, Chinese-Australian, Chinese-Canadian, etc. has both the English name and the Chinese name given in it. Abstrakt 22:28, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Could some of the supporters of including her Chinese name please provide proof that it is in fact one of her given names. The fact that she is ethnically Chinese does not mean it should be included if it was not offically given or assumed by her. Every famous figure is given a Chinese name when reported about in the Chinese press, that doesn't mean it should be in their wikipedia entry. 67.39.179.156 07:15, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

When the press makes up a name, you will not see any consistency. For example, you can find George Bush's name show up in Chinese publications in at least a dozen variations. It is each paper's creativity that decides how to translate his name. Chinese language is notorous for homonym. One pronunciation can be written in a few dozens Chinese characters. When every Chinese paper in the ENTIRE UNIVERSE writes her name in one and only one way (I didn't count the difference between Tradition and Simplified characters because they represent the same Chinese character even when simplified.), there is only one explanation: -- her PR manager gave out her name in such a way via an official channel. Since she doesn't have an official website, it is not easy to verify unless you know her or her family personally. Likewise, can anyone here provide the proof that Michelle Kwan is her real name and not her stage name? Is anyone here close enough to her to check her passport? Kowloonese 08:00, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

1. google shows 200 thousands webpages using this name. 2. Every Chinese newspaper writes her name the same way. 3. Undeniably she is of Chinese decent. 4. Most Chinese Americans have Chinese name given by their parents. All evidence indicates that this name is undoubtly her given name. Consensus says it is her given Chinese name. (Is 1.3 billion people enough?). The burden of proof is on the minority. Those who claim this is not should provide proof. It is not hard to do. Just ask her next time you see her perform. Kowloonese 08:25, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't matter what name Chinese people use for her. But what is the reason for including her Chinese name in non-Chinese Wikipedias? Do we include Hebrew names of Jewish-Americans in their Wikipedia articles? Why must the ancestry of Asian-Americans deserve special emphasis?

[edit] The Best and deserves a gold medal for all her hard work

Michelle is the best skater ever. She has it all. She has won silver, bronze, 5 worlds, 9 nationals, etc. She deserves a gold medal for everything that she did. She has made an imprint in figure skating history and you will find her in figure skating books along side gold medalists. Maybe she doesn't have a gold medal, but in my opinion she does for all her hard work. She is an excellent skater!!!! As much as I like Sasha Cohen, Michelle is a better skater.

This is not for discussing Michelle Kwan, who is a great skater, but about editing Michelle Kwan's Wikipedia article.

[edit] Someone is a little creepy with the Trivia section

Okay guys, there's too much information and there's this article. Do we really need to know what Michelle Kwan's high school GPA is? It sounds like a gang of stalkers has written this article.

As a matter of fact, do we really need to know any of the items in the trivia list?? What is the definition of the word "trivia" anyway? Kowloonese 03:16, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, the article with that specific trivia can be found here. I don't know how reliable it is. 68.248.7.209 22:06, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tone

This could use some tone cleanup. Parts of it read like a Michelle Kwan fansite. Some of the competition description could be pared down, too. --Fang Aili ^talk 20:31, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Non-encyclopedic content

Just a reminder that this is an encyclopedia, not a Michelle Kwan fan site. Some particular things that are not appropriate to include in this article are:

• General gushing about Kwan and/or her skating
• Links to fan sites and message boards whose purpose is to gush about Kwan and/or her skating
• Quotes gushing about Kwan and/or her skating
• Links to editorials gushing about Kwan and/or her skating

I think the article already makes it clear that Kwan is a very prominent, accomplished, and popular athlete, and it doesn't need to include specific examples of fannishness to make the point. Dr.frog 03:12, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I second this. --Fang Aili ^talk 18:35, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Another thing for contributors to this article to keep in mind: it's an encyclopedia article about Michelle Kwan, and it's not necessary or appropriate to include a blow-by-blow account of what each of her competitors did at any particular competition here. If you want to write up such competition recaps, I suggest you add to or create articles about those specific competitions instead of adding the content here. This article is already longer than the preferred size for Wikipedia. Dr.frog 12:36, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

And, while we're at it, since this is the English Wikipedia, it seems especially inappropriate to include links to fan sites that are not in English, given the vast amount of other information that is available about her in English. Dr.frog 17:16, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Users Not Allowing Edits

• I have to say that I am a bit offended by some of the users who won't let others add on to the article despite how useful the edit may be. Some users deleted a section on qoutes which many people might be interested in reading and a section on articles pertaining to Michelle. It's not the type of editing to gush on Michelle Kwan. 69.235.230.12

Please read the section above about "non-encyclopedic content" for the reason why this material was deleted. It's nice that you'd like to contribute to Wikipedia, but please do remember that this is an encyclopedia and not a Michelle Kwan fan site. You might also want to read the official Wikipedia policies on neutral point of view and wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not. Dr.frog 11:45, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

You might also want to read the pages on Wikiquote and Wikipedia:external links. Dr.frog 19:16, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Good article?

Is there anything that would prevent this from being a Good article? --Fang Aili ^talk 15:29, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it could use a lot more references. --Fang Aili ^talk 16:23, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Aside from remaining NPOV issues throughout the article, I've noted that the competition results section needs a lot of cleanup and factual correction. E.g., there are copy-editing issues like not capitalizing "Olympic"; "US Nationals" needs to be changed to "U.S. Championships"; "Worlds Championships" should be "World Championships"; the cheesefest Kwan skated in last December was a USFSA event, not an ISU-sanctioned event, and needs to be listed in the cheesefest section rather than with major competitions; cheesefests are not properly referred to as "Championships" -- probably the best name for the cheesefest section is "Made-for-TV and other events", while changing the name of the non-cheesefest section to "Major championships and international competitions", or something like that. Again, need to be careful to distinguish between ISU-sanctioned events and USFSA events, and use the correct names, not things like "Marshalls". Just don't have the time or ambition to work on this right now, but the way it is now is a mess. Dr.frog 16:34, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kwan's competitive history

How would people feel about replacing the numerous season breakdown tables with a general table like the one at Irina Slutskaya? This would give the reader a simpler breakdown of information without getting into details like who choreographed her programs. The season breakdowns could be moved to a separate article titled Michelle Kwan competitive record or something like that. Thoughts? --Fang Aili ^talk 18:43, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

• I like the idea of an "at a glance" table. The hidden sections used to be just the one table, but more detail was added. If another page is broken off (and is that really kosher? None of the other skaters have that...) then some serious research into actual scores could be done. I think it would be interesting to see exactly what each program got, but that might be overkill on the information front. Some of the Olympic articles contain detailed info like that, and it is often interesting to read through to see just what happened. Just my thoughts. MaKaM 01:10, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

• I was trying to do some cleanups in these sections earlier today, but it's really a big mess, as some "major" competitions are now listed as cheesefests and some appear in both places. My suggestion is to get rid of the fancy tables for competition results entirely, get rid of all the entries for results for other skaters and for competitions that Kwan didn't even compete in, and simply present a list of her results grouped by season. I guess it's OK to leave the tables with the program info, but right now much of that information is duplicated in the running text of the article; does it really need to be in both places? Also, many of the competitions are still not listed by their correct names; see Kwan's USFSA bio for a canonical list. Basically, I think we ought to be aiming for making the information more accurate and compact, getting rid of duplication and stuff that's not specifically about Kwan. Dr.frog 19:04, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't mind moving the tables to a page like Michelle Kwan competitive record, as suggested above; I think the detail is cool, but misplaced. We don't need all that detail in a Kwan's article--there is enough to say about her without going into the nitty gritty of each competition. But people spent a lot of time on those tables; it's encyclopedic information and I'd hate to loose them. I envision a "See main article...", followed by a one-shot table like this one displaying results of the major competitions. --Fang Aili ^talk 23:48, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I created the separate article Michelle Kwan competitive record and just copied the tables from this main one (I didn't have time to go in and break out the collapsing table if that's even what we want). If people like it, we can trim out the competive section and provide a small "at a glance" table with World, National, Olympic records. (thanks to Fang Aili for the one table and medal icons I used). I have a second one that is more along the lines of the ones in the Sasha Cohen page if we want to have a different look. As for the terminology for the main article, I figure something like: Below is a table listing Kwan's accomplishments at major international competitions. For a more detailed competitive history including scores, music, and choreography, see Michelle Kwan competitive record. Then people can go hog-wild with the break-off page and put in every judge's score if the urge takes them. MaKaM 19:11, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Expansion of the infobox

I personally much preferred when there was one row for gold medals, one row for silver, and one row for bronze. Expanding it into one row for each individual medal is a little bit over the top, in my opinion. Any thoughts? theProject 16:19, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree. --Fang Aili ^talk 17:24, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

All the other figure skaters with Olympic Medals have a special box above their photos with their Olympic Records. Is there any reason Michelle's are down in with the National and World records? I think we should strive to conform with the general template. MaKaM 01:43, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Olympic, World, and National Results on the side of the page

I think that it would look much better if the results on the side of the page read "gold," "silver," and "bronze," instead of 1st place, 2nd place, and 3rd place. Every other Olympian has the color of the medal, not 1st, 2nd, or 3rd, which, in my opinion, makes it seem less important. It also makes it seem less important that all NINE of her national gold medals are scrunched up in one little box. why can't they have their own separate "gold" medal rows? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.12.116.197 (talk • contribs).

The "1st place" is already in a box that is gold colored; we don't really need to repeat the word "gold" when it's obvious. Also, Kwan is not every other Olympian--she has had a really long career and giving each win its own row would make this already long box even longer. --Fang Aili ^talk 13:26, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't agree, but oh well. I don't have to come to wikipedia to learn about Michelle, anyway.Skatekwan6 22:33, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GAC

I judged this article on 7 criteria:

1. Well-written: Pass
2. Factually accurate: Pass
3. Broad: Fail
4. Neutrally written: Pass
5. Stable: Fail
6. Well-referenced: Fail
7. Images: Pass

Man, so much work has gone into the competitive scores section, it hurts to fail this. But I am. Stable is a fail- there's about 30-40 edits a day going on now, and there's been at least one edit war in the last day alone. Broad is a fail because there's almost no effort given to her personal biography- I had to go to the trivia section to find out what college she went to. And speaking of Trivia sections- no. A bulleted list of trivia is a big no-no. Pull some stuff out to biography, make a section for appearances in tv shows and the like. And finally, references fail because 9 is far too few for an article like this. Push for 20 or so, focusing on referencing her career to start with. While this article fails, it does however get the coveted ("cough") PresN stamp of approval- clean this up and message me on my talk page, and I'll immediately re-examine it, without having to go thorugh GAC again. --PresN 04:38, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia

I've compiled the trivia into paragraphs. The prose and content placement isn't perfect but I just wanted to get that ugly "misc trivia" section gone. I've completely removed some bits that seemed way too specialized or just non-encyclopedic. --Fang Aili ^talk 23:40, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Awards and accolades

This section should be removed or converted into meaningful paragraphs. Right now it's a bunch of fanspeak with no context. --Fang Aili ^talk 15:44, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I went ahead and did this. I boiled down this section a lot and left in the awards/accolades that seemed most notable and encyclopedic. I don't think we needed to list each time she got a "Kid's choice" award and the like, or when she was merely a nominee for something. --Fang Aili ^talk 16:23, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GAC Part 2

I'm back! As per the failed criteria from last time:

• Broad - Now passes, the personal biography has been greatly improved. While her competitive biography is much larger than the personal one, it is, after all, the notable and famous part of her life.

• Stable- Pass. There's been a bunch of edits lately, but it's all towards improving the article with refs and such, and vandalism is fairly low.

• References- Pass! I'd love to see more references, but as I said above, I'm looking for 20ish, and 19 is definately 20ish. If the editors working on this article want to push it to FAC, I'd say to keep working on the refs, but it's enough for GAC at the moment.

Result: Pass! Good job, everyone. --PresN 18:28, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

I'm not sure what the problem is here regarding the intro section. The 2 sources I put after "greatest figure skater.." support that statement. Only the one Christian Science Monitor source[1] supports the assertion that she's mostly known for her failure to win Olympic gold. The Asian Media Watch source specifically says "regarded as one of the greatest figure skaters of all time"[2]. --Fang Aili ^talk 13:38, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps the right thing to do is to remove all of this stuff about people's opinions about Kwan. Her record speaks for itself. Dr.frog 13:48, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Streamlining the Article

The article is getting extremely fat. And so many people have put in so much work to it. How can we streamline the article further. Should we create stubs for it to transfer some of the information? Like her competitive records. Should the Competitive Biography section be moved to a different article altogether and then just leave a seasonal summary in the competitive biography?

If we were to portion out the article, what should be left in the main article?

How would these changes affect the article's rating as a GA?

Juaquino 16:06, 24 December 2006

Even though I'm a skating fan, I really don't think Kwan is important enough to justify being the subject of multiple articles! I think what we really need to do is just tighten up the writing some more and be merciless about cutting trivia that is not directly relevant to Kwan's career as a skater. One thing I'd particularly like to see done is to have the results tables put into a more standard format that show only Kwan's results and not those of other skaters. We might also get rid of the cheesefest results entirely since those are not notable competitions. And, do each of Kwan's programs (including exhibitions) really need to be named both in the running text and in tables in the results sections? Dr.frog 01:16, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

How about seperating programs from results, listing them separately, and changing results tables to look more like the table decided on here? I think mentioning programs in text is good, but having a straight chronological listing as well would be useful for quick reference purposes, even though redundant. Kolindigo 04:23, 25 December 2006 (UTC)