Talk:Modal jazz
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Appearances aside, there is no "I" in Wikipedia. I'm going to try to revise this into an encyclopedia article rather than an essay. -- Dreamword 19:48 Feb 12, 2003 (UTC)
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[edit] Correction: Dorian <> minor
The article states "Both of these songs were in Dorian mode meaning they were in a minor mode." Actually, Dorian is like minor, but it has a raised sixth note of the scale:
D dorian is D,E,F,G,A,B,C,D. D minor is D,E,F,G,A,B-flat,C,D.
D dorian is played on all white notes of the piano. A minor is played on all white notes on the piano.
- You are forgetting the difference between natural minor, harmonic minor and melodic minor. 82.176.202.214 14:36, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Since there is only one note difference between the scales, most of the chords are the same. A normal dorian triad (D-F-A for D dorian) is the same as a minor triad.
[edit] Difficulty improvising on standard changes.
Which musicians exactly said they were having difficulty creating original improvisations on standard changes? This statement needs backing up with quotes from the musicians involved.--Light current 01:27, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Definition of "mode"
I think this article should correct and clarify the definition of "mode". The current article includes this: "Modes are the seven scales used in medieval music which were 'rediscovered' by composers like Claude Debussy and frequently used by 20th century composers."
There are a number of modes which are not based on the WWHWWWH arrangement of the major scale (for example, there are also six other modes of the Melodic Minor scale), and modal jazz is still modal jazz even if it's not based on standard WWHWWWH diatonic modes. There are also a number of modes based on scales of less than or more than seven notes. (For example, pentatonic modes). Any Jazz musician who's improvising on a mode instead of chord changes is playing modally, not just those improvising on modes of the standard western Major scale.
There are a number of types of modal music outside of jazz as well, such as most indian classical ragas, few of which actually use a mode of the major scale as a base.
[edit] Addition to history section required
This excellent page could be enhanced by expanding on the unique Miles Davis Sextet sessions (that became "Kind of Blue") that recorded modal jazz in 1959 like never before (some of the tracks are used as examples to modal jazz in the folling section. It should be noted the role of Bill Evans on this recording and also that he became the leading exponant of this type of music. --Jppigott 14:22, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] "All Blues" and "Freddie Freeloader" are not good examples of modal jazz
The article states: "Among the significant compositions of modal jazz were "So What", "Freddie Freeloader," and "All Blues" by Miles Davis and Impressions by John Coltrane. They follow the same AABA song form and were in D Dorian for the A sections and modulated a half step up to E♭ Dorian for the B section."
"So What" and "Impressions" certainly fit this description, but "Freddie Freeloader" and "All Blues" don't, since they both have blues structures, not AABA. It could be argued that they have a modal 'feel', but in terms of the structural and harmonic features of modal jazz as outlined in this article, they don't make a very good example.JTHobbyist 00:05, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Response to above
I agree that "Freddie Freeloader" isn't a good example of modal jazz, "All Blues" is significant though. The part where a normal blues would go to the IV the bass is still playing I, so you could argue that they still play G, just a different mode. It's a brilliant way of taking a blues into modal jazz, so it should be noted as such. Why isn't flamenco sketches in the list? That's the best example on the album together with "So What". --pklinken(noaccount)
I disagree regarding "All Blues". It's a great tune but it does not happen to be a great illustration of modal jazz. The bass I over the IV is nothing more than basso ostinato, people have ben doing this since baroque times. On other recordings of "All Blues" the bass sometimes plays the IV -- in a true modal pice that wouldn't work. kibi 17:36, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Ofcourse playing the IV in the 'IV' part will work, it's a blues. The point i was trying to make is that it is a good illustration of using modal elements in a blues form, which is one of the most important forms in jazz after all. I also dont think it's just a basso ostinato, as the bass plays the root and the seventh of I, also in the IV part, on the strong beats, suggesting more I minor than IV dominant. So im not saying it's a great illustration of modal jazz, but it's significant because it uses modal elements, if you agree, in a blues form. Btw, I just had a peek at my copy of Kind of Blue and in the liner notes Bill Evans writes: ""All Blues" is a 6/8 12-measure blues form that produces its mood through only a few modal changes and Miles Davis' free melodic conception." --pklinken(noaccount)
