Brukar:Olve/Kjellaren/Skanwiki

Frå Wikipedia – det frie oppslagsverket

Innhaldsliste 1 skanwiki 2 Mal:Interwiki guidelines 3 Skanwiki 4 Please unblock user:yurik 5 Apologies and explanation

[endre] skanwiki

• Halló Olve! Please answer to Wikipedia-diskusjon:Interwikilenkjer#skanwiki - abstract or brief translation. Thanks in advance! Best regards Gangleri | Th | T 13. mar 2005 kl. 0857 (UTC)

Halló Olve! Thanks for Einangsteinen! Could you please fix also commons:Eingangsteinen? I thing it was late night or mistyping. Best regards Gangleri

Thanks! Gangleri | Th | T 14. mar 2005 kl. 0835 (UTC)

• Halló Olve! I made an example for skanwiki out of "Wikipedia:Ambassaden" and added "See their sort order at this embassy." at Wikipedia:Ambassaden#Interwiki guidelines. You may reorder them, add new ones and correct links. Please do not remove the comment lines. Thanks! Best regards Gangleri | Th | T 14. mar 2005 kl. 1557 (UTC)

[endre] Mal:Interwiki guidelines

• Halló Olve! I made Mal:Interwiki guidelines. Maybe this way it would be easier to maintain / update the informations. What is missing in the template is:

1. "Last changed"
2. a link to modify the information in the template / to edit the template

• I have not checked if the template can be used also in Wikipedia:Ambassaden. As I am visiting all the embassies I will ask for a similar section Interwiki guidelines everywhere, maybe also for a template. Best regards Gangleri | Th | T 15. mar 2005 kl. 0919 (UTC)

[endre] Skanwiki

Hei Olve! I samband med at me la ut alle fire artiklane på framside, og at Wolfram tykte det ville sjå fint ut på no: og, skreiv eg om kva me hadde gjort på da:Wikipedia:Landsbybrønden og se:Wikipedia:Bybrunnen. Me har fått svært gode tilbakemeldingar frå brukarar på :da, men ingen svar ennå frå :sv.

Medan eg har arbeitt med dette, tenkte eg at me kanskje treng ein slags skandinavisk meta-wiki (sjå diskusjon på Wikipedia-diskusjon:Skanwiki. Kva tykkjer du om dette? Eg har sett opp ein slags portal på meta:Skanwiki. Eg orsakar viss eg ikkje har vore noko særleg kommunikativ med idéane mine, eg har berre sett dei i gong. Eg brukte blant anna ordet Skanwiki, noko så vidt eg hugsar var "ditt" ord, og vonar at det faktum at eg nyttar det som namn på meta-sidene ikkje gjer noko. Dei kan alltids forandrast. Eg tykte berre eg var så godt i gong, det var synd å la det liggja å venta, no eg hadde tid til å gjera litt slikt.

Elles har eg vore i kontakt med Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason frå :is. Han er utviklar av MediaWiki, og skulle ta ein titt på bot-dokumentet eg har laga. Viss han har tid skal han sjå på dette, viss ikkje kan me jo sjå kva Jarle er god for ;)

Forandr gjerne på kva du enn ser av det eg har gjort!

Bjarte 28. mar 2005 kl. 0115 (UTC)

Nei, eg lanserte da idéen om skanwiki for at han skulle brukast, så dette er fine saker ja! :-) Tykkjer det er fint alt det du har sett i gang. Det vi kan prøve å få til i tillegg (no eller seinare) er skanwikilenkjebolkar på artikkelsidene og grannespråksøk ved tom innhaldsside eller manglande treff på søk. Det er nok nyttig om vi argumenterer med kor stort eit oppslagsverk dei fire skandinaviske wikipediaene er samla — godt over 100 000 artiklar, faktisk...! Og kvar av dei fire wikipediaene har sine særleg sterke sider — her på nn: har vi m.a. mykje grundigare systematisert stoff om jødedommen (og potensiale for kristendommen, islam og hinduismen), om politiske parti og om nynorskforfattarar enn på dei andre tre; da: har relativt mykje stoff om islam; no:/nb: er sterkt på tyske tilhøve osv... Saman er vi sterke! :) -- Olve 28. mar 2005 kl. 0127 (UTC)

[endre] Please unblock user:yurik

Dear Olve,

I am very sorry to have caused any issues with nn site. I was in the rush to register for all needed languages, and forgot to put links back to my English page (same name).

I am one of the wikipediabot developers [1], working off the latest bleeding edge version of the interwiki code. I am presently working on optimizing and reducing interwiki conflicts that are unfortunately very common among wikipedia sites. Our goal is to make interwiki bot auto-update all known language sites when it successfully resolves any missing or conflicting interwikies. This significantly reduces the amount of work each bot owner has to go through to solve interwiki problems, allowing them to get all language sites in sync. Also, this reduces the stress on the servers, as less bots have to run to maintain the same level of interwiki cohesion.

Please contact me at en:user:yurik for further discussion. --Yurik, connected from an unblocked ip.

I will be happy to unblock you now that you are communicating. :-) I hope also that you can find a way of letting the interwiki links that are found before the <!-- interwiki --> tag alone, so that we won't have to keep putting the scanwiki section back... I will contact you on en:user:yurik now. :-) Olve 11. juli 2005 kl. 07:24 (UTC)

Olve, again, I'm sorry about the lack of communication. I simply did not know you were trying to get in touch. The bot stopped working on nn, and that's how I found out :).

Can you describe the exact format of the interwiki section you would like? Currently the bot framework does not handle comments too well (it simply ignores them, or, if the comment surrounds an interwiki, it ignores the comment and treats interwiki as if not commented out). Our code can already prepends the interwiki links in any custom format on a per-language base. For example, you can say that "no,sv,da,en" should be inserted before any other links (in that order), and afterwards the rest of the links will be inserted in a globally defined order (where 'fi' would be placed after 'ru' as 'Russian' > 'Suomi').

What exact order would you like them in? Also, how important is having the extra comments your referred to (No other language, AFAIK, actually uses them, as they are not practical for a large size wiki)? Unfortunately comments would require a substantial code change.

Lastly, can you explain the situation with nn/nb/no/... other Nordic languages? I saw some weird code to get rid of nb if nn is present, or something similar. What sites are available, which interwikies can be safely deleted?

Thanks! --Yurik 11. juli 2005 kl. 23:31 (UTC) (:en:user:yurik)

Hello Yurik, Nice to hear from you! :-)

1. To take the issue about no/nb first: Until a while ago, the code no: caused the interwiki link name to be "Norsk" and the code nb: caused the interwiki link name to be "Norsk (bokmål)". Since both the no:/nb: Wikipedia and the nn: one are Norwegian (i.e., "norsk") wikipedias, the display of "Norsk" was seen as imprecise and politically unfortunate. Now that they both lead to the same display, namely "Norsk (bokmål)", the issue is not as pressing anymore, and there is a general sense (with some dissent) that it is OK to use the code no: to ensure a bit of a "diplomatic relief" between the two Norwegian wikipedias. Also, a user here (Brukar:Jarle|Jarle]]) tested a bot to see how easy it would be to do a full local change from nb: to no: or vice versa, and it went quite well. So if at some point in the future it is decided to deprecate one of these two codes, it will be no big deal to do the necessary changes with a few days of basic botting. Bottom line: Most of us here use the no: code, some use the nb: code, and this is no big deal at the moment. So don't worry too much about that one.
2. The order of the links: You seem to be doing just fine! :-)
3. The skanwiki/interwiki tags:
   1. For "real people": The reason why we have these is that our non-bot visitors used to move down all the Scandinavian interwiki links because they thought they were misplaced. The use of skanwiki and interwiki comment tags seems to be enough of a "thought provoker" that people actually stop and think, and then realise that this section is intentional.
   2. As for how to be able combine this with robots, that is apparently a stickier issue... The ideal solution would be if one could get rid of this section and the duplicate links altogether and have a special treatment of "local interwiki" be automatic and locally defined. If we had such a solution, it seems that at least the no:/nb: Wikipedia would be quite willing to start displaying Scandinavian interwiki links separately too — and possibly also Danish (and maybe a very slight chance for Swedish). As the situation is today, that is not an option. Therefore, our assessment of the situation here on nn: is that the skanwiki code is the way to do it for now. If you and/or Andre could find a way to tell the robots to use the skanwiki tag, that would be great. If not, an alternative would be to find a different code that can do the same while leaving a clear visible hint to non-bot visitors that the skanwiki section is actually intended.
4. The outcome of the work with this issue can probably be quite useful for other closely-related languages, such as varieties German/Plattdüütsch/Dutch, Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian(/Macedonian/Bulgarian), Czech/Slovak, etc.

OK — these are some thoughts for now. T@lk to you soon. Best greetings from Nassau County on Long Island, Olve 12. juli 2005 kl. 00:00 (UTC)

[endre] Apologies and explanation

My apologies for not reacting earlier. I should have done so, you are right. On the other hand, I was getting quite irritated too. I have already changed the bot programming twice to have the scanwiki included (once to have the languages in scanwiki appear in the interwiki as well, the second time because my first attempt only worked if the interwiki after it would be alphabetized on code rather than name). And all I get is more complaints. And a request to turn the programming up-side-down again. So for now, I'll just tell the bot it should leave nn: as it is and don't bother about it. - Andre Engels 15. jul. 2005 kl. 07:34 (UTC)

«All you get is more complaints»...? Andre: The instructions about skanwiki tags have been there for a very long time now. And that includes the tags. I am very sorry to get the impression that you are not interested in dialogue. While dialogue sometimes involves negative feedback, it also involves positive feedback — especially when a job is well done. I was actually looking forward to discussing this issue and hopefully be able to help a little bit in the further development of localisation issues.

When it comes to finding methods for increased local cooperation between wikipedias, Nynorsk Wikipedia is actually “cutting edge”. Yes, that does mean that there are some changes along the way. And some “bugs”. But it also means there are challenges that can turn into useful knowledge for other languages where a high degree of local interwiki cooperation is desired. I can imagine that a feature making navigation between nl:, fy:, nds:, nds-nl:, af:, and perhaps also als: and de:, easier could be quite useful.

Our current solution does cause some extra work (while it also saves considerable amount of work in other ways through improved local navigability), and it does contain some “annoying” code. But it works. And as of yet, we don’t have a different solution that actually works. The “skanwiki” tags which apparently cause some robot problems actually create enough of an awareness of our solution amongst our guests that we relatively rarely have to repair well-meant re-alphabetisation. If your bot takes away that feature, we have the choice between either getting the old alphabetisation problems back or having to go over all your bot’s edits and repair the code again.

As for your saying that you had to change your programming twice, I don’t think it is fair to blame nn: for that — the first change was, as you said, incomplete, since it didn’t actually do what you designed it to do yet.

Maybe a solution could be to have a bot go over all changed pages every 24 hours and change the interwiki setup to the desired order, including no/sv/da first? If such an operation were run, maybe the guests who move down these links won’t be a problem — even with the absence of skanwiki and interwiki tags. That is an example of the type of conclusions we might arrive at if we communicate about the process. But that takes an active dialogue (and maybe a little bit of tough skin :] ).

Anyway, you can be part of this process or not. That is up to you. And you can of course feel free to disagree with me or any other user on our Nynorsk Wikipedia team about whatever issue. I for one would be very glad to have you here, as long as you participate in the discussions about your work — especially when it comes to cases where there is a clear-cut policy which has been decided on by our community.

Respectfully, Olve 15. juli 2005 kl. 08:16 (UTC)

Thanks, but also some remarks: The first time it did work as intended, I just had not understood the order correctly. Apart from that, I also realize only now that the new form is also incorrect in another way: When there are less than seven interwikis, and thus no skanwiki, it will put everything in alphabetical order rather than putting no:sv:da: first. I will be trying to work something out, but I'm not really in the mood for that now. - Andre Engels 15. jul. 2005 kl. 17:12 (UTC)