Talk:Ole Nydahl

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Contents 1 Stub tag? 2 Controversies need some mentioning 2.1 Insignificant and un-neutral viewpoint 3 Wikipedia:reliable source Ole Nydahls controversies 4 Why it is still not added that Ole Nydahl is seen as controversial too? 5 Grammer in First Paragraph 6 Restructure for clarity

[edit] Stub tag?

OK, this is far from being complete (some additional details like precise date of birth or list of books he has written would be nice) but maybe we could remove the stub tag already? AndyBrandt 19:05, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Controversies need some mentioning

This teacher is not without controversy in Buddhist circles, which deserves some mention, IMHO. I have heard Lama Nydahl speak, and have read his book 'Entering the Diamond Way' and have read of the controversies, which I will not repeat here, except to say that seekers and students should not be too gullible.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.202.173.218 (talk • contribs).

I've added the Dalai Lama conflict and restored the skydiving accident. I appreciate some more positive wording could be achieved, but I've tried to remain neutral. I removed the "serious" adjective regarding his injuries because he recovered and it keeps the article succinct. Peace. Metta Bubble 21:38, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

I'd suggest that the controversies surrounding Oles' teaching is more appropriate on the Diamon Way page rather than here.ALR 09:16, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Is both appropriate really? I believe comments about his skydiving and views on the Dalai lama are appropriate here. Comments on his teachings, which we currently don't have could go over there. Peace. Metta Bubble 06:13, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Nydahl's view on Islam is certainly worth mentioning. It's very un-buddhistic. And we're not just talking about Muslim fanatics. Islam as a whole is more or less 'evil', if you are to believe him. You'll not hear this when attending the first few meetings, but keep going and you'll eventually hear things said about Muslims that's in grave contrast to the teachings about universal compassion and tolerance. I know of at least one other person who's turned away from him on discovering this. Some people, however, give in and accept the notion that Islam is evil. An old friend of mine, once very tolerant, has gone this way, accepting the teachings of the prejudiced lama...—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.166.158.89 (talk • contribs). - March 28, 2006

Please provide some links if you'd like someone to review the information you propose exists. Peace. ॐ Metta Bubble ^puff 11:15, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

The information I provided is not easily verified. That's why I put it here and not in the article itself. It's something of a hush hush-issue within that circle. I highly doubt that Ole will ever admit to this animosity in public, especially considering the recent Muhammad-crisis. Unless someone secretly record some of his Muslim-bashing, you'll only have my word for it. The only way I can think of for anyone to get hard confirmation is to come here to DK and become one of his students.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.166.158.89 (talk • contribs). - 12:58, March 30, 2006

I was wrong. There is, in fact, an easier way to get confirmation. Afer submitting my response, I did some reseach and realized that the German Wikipedia article on Nydahl reflects reality to a much greater degree than the English one. Here you'll find mention of the controversies not included in the English version, including but not limited to his views on Islam. I also found this interview[1], in German as well. Like most Danes I've learned German in school and understand the following quote, which says it all: "Was ich über den Islam sage entspricht völlig der Wirklichkeit. Frauenunterdrückung, die politischen Morde - jeder der Zeitung lesen kann und bessere deutsche Zeitungen verfolgt, sieht deutlich, wie gefährlich der Islam ist. Natürlich muss ich das auch sagen können. Die Leute wissen ja zu wenig über östlichen Religionen um die Unterschiede zu kennen. Sie denken alles aus dem Osten ist gut und irgendwie das selbe. Da muss ich schon sagen, dass Buddhismus nichts mit dem Islam gemein hat. Wir behandeln unsere Frauen gut und darüber hinaus gibt es natürlich auch noch andere gravierende Unterschiede. Klar muss ich das sagen um deutlich zu machen, wer wir sind." If you're not fluent in German, I suggest using Babel.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.166.158.89 (talk • contribs). - 13:34, March 30, 2006

I'm afraid Babel has let me down. It comes out as:

• Which I over the Islam legend corresponds completely to the reality. Woman Mrs., the political murders - everyone the newspaper to read can and improves German newspapers pursued, sees clear, how dangerous the Islam is. Naturally I must be able to say also. The people know to know too few over eastern religions around the differences. They think everything from the east are good and somehow the same. There I must say that Buddhism does not have anything in common with Islam. We treat our wives well and beyond that there's naturally also other serious differences. Obviously I must say this to make clear, who we are.

I could extrapolate pieces:

• sees clear, how dangerous the Islam is.
• I must say that Buddhismus does not have anything with the Islam in common
• We treat our wives well and beyond that give it naturally also still different serious differences.

However, I am disinclined to use these because the translation is so poor that the context is missing. For all I know he's talking about the German newspaper's opinion or the opinion of Buddhists in general. I'd also like to view the passage you cited in the context of the entire article (translated well). Can you offer a better translation or know someone who can?

Given the context our discussion here it would be easy to conclude the piece is damning, but I just can't accurately factor in my personal biases and deal with a poor translation simultaneously. Peace. ॐ Metta Bubble ^puff 00:01, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

From what I can make out, the interview was conducted in connection with a lecture he gave at the Buddhist Center in Wuppertal (which Ole founded). Since christenn.de seems to be a Christian site, I assume the interviewer to be of Christian faith - which may explain the underlying critical tone in the questions asked. In response to a question, Ole states that they (Diamond Way) are not missionary. (my translations - basically a somewhat improved version of the Babel) To be missionary is to go somewhere and say: What I have is right, what you have is wrong. But we say: what we have is right for us, and hopefully what you have is good for you. Then the interviewer says: But what you have said about Islam was not so tolerant, that was rather harsh. To which Ole answers:

What I've said about Islam fully corresponds with reality. Opression of women, the political murders - everyone who can read a newspaper and follows the better German newspapers, clearly sees how dangerous Islam is. Naturally I must be able to say the same. People know too little of eastern religions to tell the differences. They think everything from the east is good and somehow the same. There I must say that Buddhism does not have anything in common with Islam. We treat our wives well and beyond that there's naturally also other serious differences. Obviously I must say this to make clear, who we are. Please note that my fluency in German is not up to speed with my English.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.166.158.89 (talk • contribs).

Okay, thanks. I will search for a fluent german speaker on Wikipedia that might be willing to do a transalation and post it here. ॐ Metta Bubble ^puff 02:38, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

You're welcome. I think I accidently messed with your previous response, trying to improve Babel. Like I changed your babel, not the one I pasted? I should be sleeping and my concentration is waning...—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.166.158.89 (talk • contribs).

I've made a request for translation here. If enough editors, like yourself, support the request we may get more German speaking editors here. Peace. ॐ Metta Bubble ^puff 12:04, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Insignificant and un-neutral viewpoint

I think the comments here about Lama Ole Nydahl are based on an insignificant and un-neutral viewpoint. His political views are no more extreme or ‘prejudiced’ than what we read and hear every day in the mainstream press and media.

On his own website [2] he states that he sees great dangers for our “soft and spoiled democratic countries”, citing Islam and over-population. He also states that if there is no willingness and foresight to protect our values, then our cultures will fall. While I can see the reason for mentioning the Karmapa controversy and Lama Ole’s connection with the side supporting Thaye Dorje, I don’t see the fact that a Buddhist teacher has a conservative view on world politics to be of much significance. Also, to call his view on Islam ‘unbuddhistic’ seems odd as Buddhism precedes Islam by several hundred years.

It is claimed here that two people have ‘turned away’ from Lama Ole (presumably because they don’t find his teaching to their taste), but one would hardly merit filing this under ‘controversy’ especially looking at the stories of other Buddhist teachers in recent times (e.g. Osel Tenzin who infected his students with AIDS in the 1980s). Vajraspanner 19:38, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

However, there are also examples of conflicts. One is the ongoing controversy about the Danish Lama Ole Nydahl, who makes statements and takes part in activities that offend a number of Buddhists who claim that his conduct is not appropriate for a Buddhist teacher.

And: Nydahl has been accused not only of speaking in a conceited and militaristic way, but also of being right wing, racist, sexist, and hostile to foreigners. His unusual activities (e.g., bungee jumping) also annoy Buddhists who are not his followers—be they other adherents of the Karma Kagyü school or not (see the statement by the DBU in Lotusblätter 13, no. 4, [1999], 64f., and Lotusblätter 14, no. 1, [2000], 56-61). , both quotes are from the article 'The Meeting of Traditions:

Inter-Buddhist and Inter-Religious Relations in the West' [3], by Oliver Freiberger, Department for the Study of Religion, University of Bayreuth, Germany

The following are excerpts from a discussion thread [4]on E-sangha, Buddhist Forum and Buddhism Forum: I went to visit a dhamma talk by Lama Ole Nydahl a couple of weeks ago. The place was crammed with people. Half of his dhamma talk consisted of hate speech against people of arab/turkish/persian descent and still he is a well-respected and highly popular teacher. (dharmagrrl)

"I think it is more accurat to speak of "cultural racism" or probably simply ignorance. His tool of choice seems to be radical simplification. His dhamma talk was supposed to be about Buddhism in the West, but I was under the impression the title should have been: How Buddhism and our European heritage is threatened by dark savages from the Middle East. *g* That's what I kept in mind:Lama Ole talked a great deal about ghettos in European cities being the greatest potential danger nowadays. So far, so good. But instead of pointing out the complex sociological correlations that lead to the current situation, he implied that these "ghettos" consisted merely of muslim people with fundamentalist or criminal intentions, out to sabotage our "European heritage". He also made a sarcastic remark about Muslimas "breeding" better than Tibetan or European women. I was impressed by this mixture of sexism and racism.

Later in same post: Lama Ole said he would give the blessing to everyone, even to those who weren't Buddhist or would later turn to another religion. It is interesting to note that the only religion he explicitly excluded was Islam, because it was a violent and dangerous religion. This makes clear he never studied Christianity or Jewish or Hindu scriptures, that include a great deal of violence, rape, misogyny, murder and so on in the name of God. He talked about a stupa being built to protect "us" from Islamic forces. I can't help but think that Lama Ole is getting really obsessive about this, leading a crusade just like the warrior he claimed to have been in another life.

I went to his talk with a friend, a Zen buddhist, who is of Persian heritage. She was almost shaking with hurt when we came out of the hall. If this is Lama Oles way of showing compassion, than I can happily abstain from it... (dharmagrrl)

In response to this: This is absolutely disgusting. What unconscionable and inappropriate remarks! (J. Khedrup)

Response: Hi J. Khedrup

I have similar impressions about this man and i know him since almost 30 years. What to say, well, well, it's like you already said. Thanks for the input! D. (Dave)

Anyone capable of Googling (try fx. Ole Nydahl + racism) can find more. "two people"?!—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.166.158.89 (talk • contribs).

Vajraspanner. I don't see how you can say the quotations we're looking for clarificaton on are insignificant and non-neutral unless you speak German fluently. Do you speak German fluently? Can you provide an accurate translation for the source? If not, it is perhaps you who is being non-neutral on this issue. Peace. ॐ Metta Bubble ^puff 02:01, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Of course every individual is free to form their own opinion, independent of what us Wikipedians decide to promote or not. Luckily there is such a richness in Buddhism that people can pick their teacher based on their own preferences and judgment, without necessarily having to get moralistic about other teachers who may be good for other students. Anyway, all the best to you and be well Vajraspanner 14:55, 01 April 2006 (UTC)

So, to summarise your position: you believe it is fine for a Buddhist teacher to be racist and anti-islam just as long as their own students approve? And your reasoning for this view is it creates diversity?

I'm sorry, but I beg to differ. I believe prominent figures are answerable to a larger community and not merely their closest ghettoised clique. Criticism's of Ole are widespread. You're suggesting we should ignore these criticisms? And your sole argument for this is that nobody is qualified to morally judge another being? You may believe that's very buddhist of you, but it's nothing to do with existing procedure on wikipedia. We should be following WP:NPOV and WP:REF. If you are sincere in your moral neutrality I suggest you take action on behalf of all beings who are getting morally judged on wikipedia. You could suggest Wikipedia policy change over at Village Pump. Peace. ॐ Metta Bubble ^puff 00:50, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Regarding Metta Bubble's criticism that Vajraspanner is non-neutral because he's not a completely fluent german speaker: I have also heard Ole Nydahl speak and vajraspanner's translation is exactly the way Nydahl speaks and refers to the media and world events. But please, get a native german to translate the passage, if you must be argumentative. I'm sure you'd only find the most minor of technical differences from what vajraspanner provided. --Rico yogi 12:12, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

There seems to be lots of confusion on this talk page about what's Buddhist and what's not. Ole Nydahl is labelled as uncompassionate and therefore 'unbuddhistic'. The Buddhist notion of compassion does not mean meekly and permissively accepting everything that anyone does. Rather, Karma says that certain actions have negative results and most likely lead to more negative situations. So in Buddhism it is compassionate to point out to people if actions will bring more suffering or more happiness. Compassion and an understanding of Karma aims for a more long term result than worrying about people's immediate likes, dislikes or political sensitivities.

Furthermore, in Tibetan Buddhism there is the idea of a Precious Human Life. This entails not just that a human life is important, but that if one is human and has a free society where one can practice Buddhism then this is incredibly rare and hard to maintain. If Ole Nydahl states that Islam may become a dominant force in Europe or any other Western country, then he's saying that the conditions to practice Buddhism would, if not just severely limited, completely vanish. More than that, he says that many democratic and societal freedoms we now enjoy would be diminished.

If this sounds crazy, tell me in which Islamic countries you can easily practice Buddhism. Buddhism requires a society where there's freedom to question pretty much everything. Its also a fact that in Asia wherever there was previously a flourishing Buddhist culture, when Islam arrived it soon disappeared - and not always peacefully either.

Ole Nydahl's comments may be hard to hear for some, but he's trying to get people to think seriously about world trends rather than only associate with people who agree with us. Nydahl also doesn't say that everyone must agree with him, not even his 'closest ghettoised clique', but he wants to challenge us to think outside the politically correct square.--Rico yogi 13:15, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Rico. Your opinion about Nydahl has absolutely no bearing on this article, nor does my opinion, nor Vajraspanners. Please read Wikipedia:Wikipedia in eight words so you understand this.

You say, "Regarding Metta Bubble's criticism that Vajraspanner is non-neutral because he's not a completely fluent german speaker." I never made this assertion, or anything close to it. Be absolutely clear on your confusion here, and reread what I requested.

I requested an accurate translation of the German article that criticises Ole Nydahl. This is a perfectly neutral thing to do. But for you and Vajraspanner to come in here and debase the article without providing a translation is pure and utter bias. You both are clearly basing your opinions without any evidence -- because no one has translated the article yet.

So, somehow you contend the article is unimportant? Unbelievable! Whether or not Nydahl is considered unbuddhistic is not open for discussion here. Nor anywhere on Wikipedia. All we need to do is merely verify facts, not intellectually battle and argue our biases of this teacher.

So purely and simply, my argument is this German source warrants a better translation.

Again, it's a neutral request. Peace. ॐ Metta Bubble ^puff 02:20, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Dear friends, here is an accurate translation into English of the passage in German quoted above:

"What I say about Islam totally reflects reality. Suppressing women, political murders, everyone who can read a newspaper and follows the better (German) newspapers can clearly see how dangerous Islam is. Of course I need to be able to say that, too. People generally don’t know so much about Eastern religion to know the differences. They think everything from the East is good and somehow the same. Then I do need to say that Buddhism has nothing in common with Islam. We are treating our women well and of course there are other huge differences that matter. Of course I need to make clear who we are."

As you can see, it's not strikingly different to the versions above, and German isn't so esoteric, so if we're talking about 'facts', it is clear that Lama Ole Nydahl has said that he thinks that Islam is dangerous (not “evil”) which was also ascertained earlier. Now we need to decide whether we want to continue or to end our 'battle' based on our personal biases, opinions and google searches. Best wishes Vajraspanner 12:02, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:reliable source Ole Nydahls controversies

Oliver Freiberger

However, there are also examples of conflicts. One is the ongoing controversy about the Danish Lama Ole Nydahl, who makes statements and takes part in activities that offend a number of Buddhists who claim that his conduct is not appropriate for a Buddhist teacher.(30) His followers, however, are equally upset and emotional about these accusations, emphasizing the spiritual strength they receive from his instructions.(31) Furthermore, this Western lineage controversy is intertwined with a dispute at the school level in Asia, namely the controversy about the seventeenth Karmapa who has been recognized in two boys, one of whom Ole Nydahl and his followers support strongly (see below).

30. Nydahl has been accused not only of speaking in a conceited and militaristic way, but also of being right wing, racist, sexist, and hostile to foreigners. His unusual activities (e.g., bungee jumping) also annoy Buddhists who are not his followers—be they other adherents of the Karma Kagyü school or not (see the statement by the DBU in Lotusblätter 13, no. 4, [1999], 64f., and Lotusblätter 14, no. 1, [2000], 56-61). --Kt66 15:54, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I added that source. --Kt66 16:05, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why it is still not added that Ole Nydahl is seen as controversial too?

Of course it needs a mentioning that Ole Nydahl is seen as controversial or is disputed. So why it is still not added? It is quite obvious that this is the case! If you want to have an idea see the german wikipage on him at: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ole_Nydahl it mentions the controversials on him in a neutral manner. Kt66 23:15, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

My point exactly! Kt66 has hit the nail on the head... (author of some of the above)—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.62.169.70 (talk • contribs) .

The ‘controversies’ section was removed. While the reference was given to Oliver Freiberger’s article, Freiberger himself takes his statements from other sources which are not referenced in this article. As the material could be construed as critical, negative or harmful and it is after all in an article about a living person Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons, Wikipedia’s guidelines suggests it should be removed. Vajraspanner 21 June 2006

Freiberger has published this research article based on publications on Nydahl. There is no reason not to mention the controversies on Nydahl and cite a reliable source for that. Controversies - if existent - are wished to mention in WP artciles. see WP guideline. --Kt66 20:58, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Dear Vajraspanner, as you tried always to supress the critics on Nydahl and even reverted the scientific source I will ask more experienced editors for their comment on the controversy section to avoid an edit war. Thank you for your consideratiion. --Kt66 21:15, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I think the criticisms section as it stands now is approximately right. Clearly part of the reason that the biography guidelines stress how not to criticise is that we want to avoid libelous situations like that with John Seigenthaler. However, in this case, I don't think there is anything remotely libelous about our criticism section. It might be a good idea to trim it down a bit to avoid "overwhelming" the rest of the article. And we should probably use less italics for the same reason.—Nat Krause^(Talk!) 21:48, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your statement I shortened it and removed the italics. --Kt66 22:15, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Dear friends, I have added some quotations from Lama Ole Nydahl so as to provide some context for the criticism you have referred to. I have tried to keep this balanced, with appropriate links. Best wishes Vajraspanner, 23 June 2006

Dear Vajraspanner, your edits meet not Wikipedia:NPOV. Some examples: His own comments are certainly worth examining. also Since Lama Ole Nydahl himself claims to teach people fearlessness, he engages in sports such as skydiving as a way of checking his own mind. - fearlessness is taught by the Buddha and all the Buddhist masters but the do not teach skydiving! So it is not needed to explain/justify his uncommon style by common features of Buddhism. I will try to comprehend the section as suggested by Nat Krause. There were just three or four sentence of critics and you expand that critics section to as much as the main article is. Also the critic section is now mixed with personal view. I will try to sum it. --Kt66 09:58, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I removed the ongoing use of Lama, titels are not always mentioned in WP articles (see the rules for titels). Also the praise of Karma Kagyue school was quite euphemistic. There are four main Kagyue schools and 8 branches. Karma Kagyue school is one of them. All this is mentioned/should be mentioned in the Kagyu article. Further what source is there that Ole Nydahl and Hanna were HH Karmapa first western disciples? Is this really for sure? This is a claim of him/his followers what other sources do confirm this? So I balanced this claim too. --Kt66 10:26, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Dear all, I added that Freiberger is the source of the term "ongoing controversy" since most of the criticism of Ole Nydahl mentioned is based on his research. Also I agree that it would be good to find a source for Ole and Hannah being the 16th Karmapa's first western students. I know that in 'A Cave in the Snow' it is mentioned that the english nun Tenzin Palmo recieved her nuns vows from the 16th Karmapa in 1967 (have to check that). This doesn't make her the first student of the 16th Karmapa, her teacher was Khamtrul Rinpoche.--Rico yogi 15:59, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

well done! --Kt66 06:08, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Dear all, I added a reference to a letter by the 14th Shamarpa that states that Ole Nydahl met and became a student of the 16th Karmapa in December 1969. It doesn't state that he and Hannah Nydahl were the 16th Karmapa's first western students, however since I know of no other claims from anyone else being his first western students it seems okay that we leave it as "According to Nydahl, he and his wife Hannah Nydahl, became the first western students..."--Rico yogi 16:04, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Well done! Thank you very much. I removed the claim of H.E. Sharmapa Rinpoche's/O. Nydahl's followers of being the second highest Lama in Kagyue school. I balanced also the claim of Ole Nydahl regarding HHDL. --Kt66 10:57, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Kt66, I don't think this page is really the right place for counter claims against Nydahl's opinions about the Dalai Lama's involvement in the Karmapa controversy. Don't you think it should be on the contoversy page? Another thing is that although the Dalai Lama initially did merely assent to Situ and Gyaltsap's request, followers of Karmapa Thaye Dorje see the circumstances of the Dalai Lama's involvement as controversial. Therefore, I think this passage should be mentioned on the controvery page.--Rico yogi 03:58, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Yay for the truth, no to Nydahl-follower censorship!

[edit] Grammer in First Paragraph

Can someone clean up the first paragraph the sentence: "The main focus in Diamond way is on the person Ole Nydahl, very similar like in the history in the Karma Kagyu lineage was on the Karmapa, in case of the Diamond way things did deteriorate into a Buddhist personal cult sect around the personality and charisma of this self-proclaimed Lama.."

I don't know enough about Nydahl or the Diamond Way to work out what's being said here. Perhaps it should be something like "The main focus in Diamond Way Buddhism is on the person Ole Nydahl, very similar to how, in the Karma Kagyu lineage, the main focus was on the Karmapa. However, in case of the Diamond Way, things deteriorated into a Buddhist personal cult sect around the personality and charisma of this self-proclaimed Lama."

Also, this statement (i.e. about the deterioration into a Buddhist personal cult sect) is very non-NPOV and without any supplied corroboration. Should it be here at all? 83.147.143.16 12:57, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Thankyou. I have further edited out the 'sect' comment "a kind of sect which has the same name as the original Kagyu School". Arguments aside about who is 'the real Karmapa', one can see from the website:

http://www.kagyu.net/

That as Ole Nydahl's Diamond Way Centres clearly belong within the Kagyu School and are not considered a 'sect' which merely shares it's name.

I have also taken the liberty to remove the essay which has been inserted at the top of this page (a) as it disrupts the chronology of the discussion on this page so far and (b) it is unsourced, and completely non-NPOV User:Vajraspanner 23 October 2006

Links section: I have now included the above link to Kagyu Net in the links section, clarified there what the ‘Buddha’s Not Smiling’ link refers to and also removed the link to the Buddhist Channel. The reason is that this is article is pure vilification written by a Christian who is clearly antipathetic towards Buddhism in general.

[edit] Restructure for clarity

A few changes for the sake of the page’s clarity: I have divided the main text into an introduction and also using headings for his teachers and activity to add clarity. I have also added a few more details (e.g. that Lama Ole is a student of Shamarpa, and also later a little more on what he teaches). I have located the text on his role in the Karmapa Controvery into the ‘Controversies’ section, and also made some grammatical changes to the text previously posted there. User:Vajraspanner December 13, 2006.