Talk:Osiris-Dionysus
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[edit] Inner Mysteries
I removed this pgph from the article, since it needs more support:
- Pagan spirituality of the Osiris-Dionysus sects was composed of two components. The Outer Mysteries consisted of Pagan beliefs and practices that were widely disseminated and taught to the general public. The Inner Mysteries were revealed only to those who had been initiated into the Pagan religions. The initiates learned that Osiris-Dionysus was not a historical person. His legends were simply fables containing spiritual and moral teachings.
Also, I removed the mention of Antiochus and the historical note about him. The list of proposed members of the Osiris-Dionysus complex is full enough to stand on its own without Antiochus. Bacchiad 22:01, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Controversial Viewpoint
From [1]: "Copyright © 1999 to 2002 incl., by Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance."
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- I will begin a SPD process as soon as possible...
Note that this documentation of the osiris/dionysus myth also appears to be a controversial viewpoint [2] [3] [4] , but the article presents it as straight consensus fact.
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- As your own articles point out (read them again), the controversial viewpoint of Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy is not consensus fact, but the contents of the Wikipedia Osiris-Dionysus article are.
[edit] Copyright Violation
This whole article is taken from http://pub4.ezboard.com/fcosmotheismreligionspirituality.showMessage?topicID=145.topic
Removed as a possible copyright violation.
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- The article was taken from Queendom.com message board with permission. chnlsswndr (poster at queendom) is the same person as ezboard poster SallySally2000
[edit] Jesus
Is it really good to put Justin Martyr in the article?
I mean his theory is so stupid that putting his theory in the article makes the article misleading.
I mean Osiris-Dionysus shows practically no connection to the Messiah as described in the Hebrew Bible. --Anon
- It seemed reasonable to me. I restored it. --mav
[edit] Did Osiris-Dionysus exist as an actual God
Reading this article one might think there was actually a god named "Osiris-Dionysus", which of course there was not. Rather this term is a conflation of two different dieties with similar stories... and, as the article points out, only two of many with similar stories. If anyone can think of a way of clarifying this, please do... I can't think of any felicitous way of phrasing it. -- Someone else 00:00 Nov 3, 2002 (UTC)
- Tried to do some fixing on this subject. Tuf-Kat
- Actually, "Osiris-Dionysus" was a God shared across the whole meditterranean as the chief figure in the pan-meditterranean Mystery Religion. However, the local form was heavily syncretised with local deities, producing the varients Osiris, Dionysus, Attis etc.
- But, these deities existed before, so they had earlier versions of their myths, which became part of the Osiris-Dionysus myth at a later time. CheeseDreams 19:34, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Story of Osiris-Dionysus
I removed:
- The Legend
- The following is the story of Osiris-Dionysus: God was his father. A human woman - a virgin - was his mother. According to most accounts, he was conceived physically through sexual intercourse. He was born either in a cave or cowshed (depending on the account). His birth was prophesized by a star in the sky. At a marriage ceremony, he miraculously converted water into wine. However, he was powerless to perform miracles in his hometown. He had 12 disciples and gained many followers. His followers were “born again” through baptism in water. Before his death, he rode triumphantly into a city on donkey back as the inhabitants waved palm leaves. He was accused of immoral behavior and killed near the time of the Vernal Equinox (i.e. around March 21st). He was hung either on a tree, a stake, or a cross (depending on the account). After death, he descended into hell. The cave where he was buried was visited by three of his female followers. After three days, he miraculously returned to life and later ascended to heaven. According to story, he will return again in the last days and judge the human race at that time.
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- Unfortunately this IS NOT the story of Osiris-Dionysus, just that of one or two local manifestations of him, such as Dionysus. Therefore such stories belong in the relevant Dionysus article, etc. CheeseDreams 19:34, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- Osiris-Dionysus was known by the titles, “God made flesh”, “Savior of the world” and “Son of God.” According to beliefs, Osiris-Dionysus is equal to his Father. His death was a sacrifice for the sins of the World.
Because this describes Jesus. I don't know much about the other gods mentioned, but virtually none of it applies to Dionysus, Osiris, Bacchus or Adonis and the parts that do apply to them make those deities life-death-rebirth deities, along with many others totally unrelated to Christ. Tuf-Kat
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- Tuf Kat you are just wrong to remove that. I suspect that you removed that because you are offended by the fact that it is similar to the account of Jesus but you have removed a very important part of the article. The article exists, IMHO, to provide a background on the similarities of the two types of stories. You were way out of line and I think it's ridiculous to remove a section of the article because it offends you or hits too close to home. Please, can we get some writers with knowledge in these areas? Of the things that I do know many "gods" and "heroes" throughout the ancient world share a very similar story with Jesus, like it or not. It seems to be that most items of Christian Mythology are taken from other sources (Jesus's December birthdate, virgin birth, etc). As I said, we need people who know what they are talking about here... no people with knee jerk reactions please. JoeHenzi 05:18, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
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This is an article about Osiris-Dionysus NOT Historicity of Jesus.
Please refrain from including significant amounts of content about similarities with Jesus from this article.
I am currently working on a major edit of the Historicity of Jesus page, and am including information about similarities there. CheeseDreams 19:22, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Tidy
This article is a mess.
In addition, the pages it links to need to link back.
Mystery religions should be rewritten and part of the content moved here. The remainder being a description of the general tenets of a mystery religion.
Details of how the religion spread (e.g. sailors, merchants) and took over the various pre-existing gods should be included.
Details of where it came from should be included. Pythagoreanism might help.
There should be mention of syncretism and of life-death-rebirth deity.
There should be a discription, where possible, of aspects shared between all and every of the different versions of Osiris-Dionysus.
The article should not seek to duplicate Historicity of Jesus, though it should mention it (in passing)
This page should be of a similar quality to pages about Dionysus and Mithras etc. It isnt.
Thoughts? CheeseDreams 03:46, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
To mentioning the Historicity of Jesus, I think the article should give a 2-3 paragraph summary of the topic, and link at the top of the passage to the expanded article. --Tribe4ever 07:54, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Recasting
For most of its long and glorious lifetime, this gem of an article has presented the pan-Mediterranean Jesus-like pagan "godman" Osiris-Dionysus as an established fact. I have tried to recast it into a "history of an idea"-type article. Personally, I think the theory is dumb, but it's been out there for a while, influenced a lot of people, and its development and manifestations should get serious, NPOV treatment.
Right now it could use some expansion - like named people who have argued for this viewpoint besides Hislop and Freke/Gandy. Personally, Christianity isn't my specialy, so I can't add a lot more. — Bacchiad 01:44, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
[edit] De-Stub
I have removed the stub tag. According to the policies on stub articles Wikipedia:Perfect_stub_article, a stub is not merely any imperfect article, but one too short to be useful in any sense - about 3-10 short sentences. Although this article could use some work, it is out of stub territory. Bacchiad 13:45, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
