Talk:Pella curse tablet

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	This article falls within the scope of WikiProject Writing systems, a WikiProject interested in improving the encyclopaedic coverage and content of articles relating to writing systems on Wikipedia. If you would like to help out, you are welcome to drop by the project page and/or leave a query at the project’s talk page.
Start	This article has been rated as Start-Class on the Project’s quality scale.
???	This article has not yet been assigned a rating on the Project’s importance scale.

	This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Greece; If you would like to join us, please visit the project page; if you have any questions, please consult the FAQ.
Start	This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale (If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.)
Additional information: This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-Class status: Referencing and citation: not checked Coverage and accuracy: not checked Structure: not checked Grammar: not checked Supporting materials: not checked

	This article falls under the scope of WikiProject Paranormal, which aims to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to the paranormal and related topics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the attached article, help with current tasks, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and discussions.
Start	This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale.

Contents 1 transcription 2 Dagina 3 How it was dated 4 Added info ... 5 Looky here, what I found: 6 significance 7 "Katadesmos" or "curse tablet"

[edit] transcription

1. [Θετί]μας και Διονυσοφώντος το τέλος και τον γάμον καταγράφω και ταν αλλάν πασάν γυ-

2. [ναικ]ών και χηράν και παρθένων, μάλιστα δε Θετίμας, και παρκαττίθεμαι Μάκρωνι και

3. [τοις]δαίμοσι, και οπόκα εγώ ταύτα διελ<ί>ξαιμι και αναγνοίην πάλ<L>ιν ανορ<ύ>ξασα

4. [τόκα]γάμαι Διονυσοφώντα, πρότερον δε μη μη γαρ λάβοι άλλαν γυναίκα αλλ' εμέ,

5. [εμέ δ]έ συνκαταγηράσαι Διονυσοφώντι και μηδεμίαν άλλαν, ικέτις υμώ<ν> γίνο-

6. [μαι, Φίλ]αν οικτίρετε δαίμονες φίλ[ο]ι, ΔΑΓΙΝΑΓΑΡΙΜΕ φίλων πάντων και έρημα, αλλά

7. [....]α φυλάσσετε εμίν ό[π]ως μη γίνεται τα[ύ]τα και κακά κακώς Θετίμα απόληται.

8. [....]ΑΛ[-].ΥΝΜ .. ΕΣΠΛΗΝ εμός, εμέ δε [ε]υ[δ]αίμονα και μακαρίαν γενέσται.

9. [-]ΤΟ[.].[-].[..]..Ε.Ε.Ω[?]Α.[.]Ε..ΜΕΓΕ [-]

[the diacritics are not present in the original] [1] dab (ᛏ) 28 June 2005 07:29 (UTC)

why do you transcribe ω as ōo?

copy-paste error, sorry dab (ᛏ) 09:23, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Excellent job on the text, but you forgot the ΟΙΚΤΙΡΕΤΕ translation, which I added. Thanks! -Chronographos

I think the text is quite charming, being so personal and emotional, a 4th century BC love story. I just wonder whether she got the guy, but since it seems she didn't dig up the scroll again, it is unlikely she ever married him :o) dab (ᛏ) 12:11, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

He, he, he, I agree: it's also very funny in a way. Maybe Macro was more powerful than what you and I think! Anyways, you have made a transcription mistake: you write ΑΛΛ Ε ΕΜΕ instead of ΑΛΛ Η ΕΜΕ. Would you please correct it? The Wikipedia numerical code confuses me or I would have done it myself. Thanx

I'll fix it; but why do we translate katagrapho as "I bind"? The required meaning must be something like "I encumber magically", but isn't the literal meaning just "I inscribe"? LSJ gives a meaning "I curse" [2], which is obviously intended here, so we should either say "I inscribe" (implying, with the intent to curse), or, less literally, just "I curse" dab (ᛏ) 12:17, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Good point, both LSJ and you are obviously correct. I gave thought to it and decided upon "bind" because it connects with the meaning of "katadesmos" (binding down). Still, any which way you choose to translate it, I have no objection. It depends whether one wants to offer a word-by-word literal translation or a looser, meaning-based one. It's the perennial predicament of a translator. Hence the famous "translator=traitor" motto! Chronographos 11:16, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Found some stuff! Prof. Radcliffe's translation is somewhat different. We'll talk about it some more later Chronographos 16:14, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

the brynmawr.edu page dates the text to the 2nd century BC. dab (ᛏ) 21:24, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yes, and there is actually more text on the picture than the original publication. Do you think is was better restored later on, after more pieces were found? I think the 2nd century dating, if true, actually is a stronger argument for a Macedonian dialect as by that time Koine must have been much more prevalent. I wonder whether they dated it by linguistic or stratigraphic criteria. Because the latter would be confounded by Phila's actual burying of the tab deeper than where it would be supposed to be! Notice how Phila says πασάν γυναικών και χηράν: Genitive Plural rendered successively into Doric, Attic and Doric again (admittedly the Doric forms are 1st Declension whereas the Attic one is 3rd Declension, i.e. no thematic vowel). I have no idea what ΔΑΓΙΝΑΓΑΡΙΜΕ means, not even where the word breaks are. I am pretty suspicious though that ΑΠΟΛΗΤΑΙ is grossly misspelt. I have forgotten how the Optative Aorist of απόλλυμι forms. Wish I knew where my old grammar book is hiding! Chronographos 22:10, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Dagina

what about the ΔΑΓΙΝΑΓΑΡΙΜΕ btw? The one word our hellenotetas apologete couldn't make sense of? It must mean something like "I am bereft". Ring any bells? dakhinakharime? thagina kharime? thakhina gar eme? any ideas? dab (ᛏ) 21:49, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

He is quoting a Professor Voutyras who is guessing that ΔΑΓΙΜΑ is part of the name of the woman performing the magic. This name is "surely short and ends with an a". ГАРΙΜΕ must then be gar eimi; the translation continues "for I am helpless and all my friends have abandoned me". Prof. Voutyras goes on to say that the language of the katadesmos belongs to the "wider group of Doric dialects" but has been influenced by Attic ("like all the local dialects of that time") and is a kekramenē (mixed) dialect. Attic influenced the dialect's syntax primarily, its morphology (grammar) to a lesser degree and its phonology even less. "Ancient grammarians used the term 'new Doris dialect'."--Theathenae 22:34, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

thanks! I'm only reading Greek though a fog :) So, it seems we should drop the "Phila" part. I mean, I was wondering how they came up with Philan just from ]an anyway. Dagina would then be the woman doing the cursing? That certainly sounds more Macedonian than Phila. This would yield the quite credible translation of a triple philo-:

ΦΙΛ]ΑΝ ΟΙΚΤΙΡΕΤΕ ΔΑΙΜΟΝΕΣ ΦΙΛ[Ο]Ι ΔΑΓΙΝΑΓΑΡΙΜΕ ΦΙΛΩΝ ΠΑΝΤΩΝ ΚΑΙ ΕΡΗΜΑ

Have mercy on [your dear one], dear demons, Dagina(?), for I am abandoned of all my dear ones.

dab (ᛏ) 28 June 2005 07:21 (UTC)

Assuming that is a name, no such Macedonian name is recorded AFAIK, and there is no etymology for the name, so not much can be gleaned from it. Decius 28 June 2005 08:19 (UTC)

Maybe Dagina is the name of a supernatural being, "Demons, dears ones of Dagina". For example, Dagina may have been a mother of the daimones (her 'dear ones'). I'm not too concerned though, because it's not likely to be Macedonian, however one reads it. Decius 28 June 2005 08:29 (UTC)

yeah, that's just speculation. It should be accusative anyway. Maybe Dagin? All I meant is that Dagin may be XMK, phonologically, while Phila should be Bila (but the Phi is broken off anyway). Since the text is Doric, allegedly with Attic influence, it is irrelevant for XMK, except if we can make out an XMK persnal name, and Dagina would be the only candidate of that. dab (ᛏ) 28 June 2005 09:20 (UTC)

I was giving the tablet a fair chance, but after considering that the Macedonian name Berenike may well predate this possibly 2nd century BC text (proving that the voiced aspiration goes well back), I'm no longer considering this Pella text as Macedonian. Decius 28 June 2005 09:25 (UTC)

It is, of course, Macedonian, geographically, and it may well be that Doric was spoken in Macedon all the time, as well as XMK. But for XMK, of course, it is entirely irrelevant, except for Dagina, if it is a name, maybe. dab (ᛏ) 28 June 2005 09:50 (UTC)

Dab, what Decius demonstrates is the typical rigidity of thought patterns shown by dry drunks. Everything has to fit his preconceived notions. There is no room for alternatives, no endeavor to reconcile theories with the facts, no healthy skepticism, no critical thinking. Just rigidity and endless autistic repetition. George W. Bush revisited. Chronographos 28 June 2005 16:40 (UTC)

Yeah Dab, but like we both said before, we already realized that Greek dialects were being spoken in ancient Macedon alongside XMK, so what have we really learned from all this that we didn't already anticipate? I even practically stated before my belief, based on my gloss of that passage in Herodotus, that Dorian tribes settled in ancient Macedonia alongide Macedonians (in Talk:Macedon). In the meanwhile, I'll be waiting for an XMK text to be discovered. Decius 28 June 2005 10:01 (UTC)

So, what dialect is the one on the tab, Decius? Chronographos 28 June 2005 10:06 (UTC)

It may well be a regional Greek dialect previously unknown---but I'm not going to assume it is Macedonian, if only for the reasons I stated before. But of course, the case is not closed yet. Decius 28 June 2005 10:10 (UTC)

Of course, a previously unknown dialect. And Macedonians adopted Greek names out of an inferiority complex. And Alexander, who had just overthrown the Achaemenid Empire, censored his Parthenon inscription because mentioning his ethnic identity would incense the ... Athenians! Anything, anything other than the dreaded possibility that .... Chronographos 28 June 2005 10:18 (UTC)

[edit] How it was dated

It's important to find out as-soon-as-convenient how the date was determined, and what date has been more accepted. Decius 28 June 2005 08:13 (UTC)

[edit] Added info ...

... on dating (with the respective external links), data from the Oxford Classical Dictionary, broke up first paragraph to several ones for easier legibility, changed reference to lay people vs. upper classes to non-POV. I may have more stuff soon, dab, if Professor Ronga gives me epigraphical data. In the meantime, the new Sappho poem awaits your comments at my talk page :-) Chronographos 4 July 2005 22:45 (UTC)

Added recent (2005) opinion by an Australian classicist Chronographos 6 July 2005 21:10 (UTC)

[edit] Looky here, what I found:

LSJ: δαγύς, δαγύδος, ἡ: wax doll, used in magic rites, puppet (Theocritus Idylls 2.110: "ἀλλ' ἐπάγην δαγῦδι καλὸν χρόα πάντοθεν ἴσα"). It does not fit ΔΑΓΙΝΑ morphologically, but the semantic fit just couldn't be better. Theocritus' passage is under "Φαρμακεύτριαι" (poisoners!). Chronographos 7 July 2005 01:28 (UTC)

Thanks Chrono, that's interesting. I'm going to look for the etymology of that Greek word, if it has one. Decius 7 July 2005 08:29 (UTC)

that's really interesting. So maybe she was not supposed to say her own name, and refers to her role, "have mercy on me, the curser". So could Dagina be an XMK word? Is there a thagus, dachus, tachinos or something similar? Frisk doesn't know, he has "Technisches Fremdwort ohne Etymologie." dab (ᛏ) 09:30, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] significance

later Macedonian inscriptions are in Koine avoiding both Doric forms and the Macedonian voicing of consonants.

we may indeed be learning that "Macedonian" was a Doric/N-W dialect. But that doesn't explain away the voiced consonants. We'll have to wait for a terminology to form, along the lines "Doric Macedonian" and "Macedonian X", since clearly they are two different dialects. The katadesmos conspicuously does not have voiced aspirates. My view of this is that *yes*, the Macedonian plain was Doric *Greek*, but there was also another dialect, probably spoken further north, that belongs more closely to Phrygian, or the Paleo-Balkans-continuum. We could rephrase the XMK article along these lines, but that doesn't change much about our knowledge of XMK proper. dab (ᛏ) 09:26, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Semantics and haste combined! Be a little bit patient, we can go step by step and there's some ground to cover. Let's start with Phila's commonest spelling error (I for EI): what does this tell us, and what can it explain (in the Katadesmos text)?

O Socrates, methinks that would indicate monophtongization. I cannot spot it as the 'most common' error, however. I can hardly make out single Iota. Phila, check. ginomai, ginetai, check. (but what is your comment on ginomai vs. gignomai?), malista, check. hiketis, check. what do you mean, i for ei? surely you mean "ai for ei", which is indeed Doric-NW-Lesbian dab (ᛏ) 19:47, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant I/E/EI confusion: διελέξαιμι, εμίν, and, as Dr. O'Neil thinks, πάλειν: Voutyras suggests, and O'Neil agrees, that long ι and ει were converging in pronunciation in 4th cent. BC Madeconia, so [Phi]la (or whoever) erroneously started writing an E, then stopped midway and proceeded with the I. This should account for the ΠΑΛLΙΝ. After all, one cannot erase a mistake when etching a sheet of lead. What do you think? Chronographos 20:34, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

very likely. mid 4th century is rather late, on the eve of atticization, so to speak. I was considering influence of the Latin alphabet, but this explanation seems better. hm. wouldn't it be poetic justice if Macedonia had been Doric while Macedonia had been XMK speaking? an almost Salomonic solution :) dab (ᛏ) 21:25, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Good, because O'Neil and Dubois then propose this reading: the Γ in ΔΑΓΙΝΑΓΑΡΙΜΕ might be an unfinished Π, and then it's ΔΑΠΙΝΑ ΓΑΡ ΙΜΕ (Attic: ταπεινή γαρ ειμί, for I am downcast/weak). BTW this is another I for EI, or two. I know it may sound kind of a long stretch (and so do they) but notice the "ΚΑΙ ερήμα". If ΔΑΓΙΝΑ was a first name, then "because" and "and bereft of friends" make no sense. Would you ever write: "Please help me because I am Dieter and bereft of all friends"? (Decius would, but he's special). :-))) So, the ΓΑΡ ΙΜΕ and the ΚΑΙ indicate that ΔΑΓΙΝΑ is an adjective describing [Phi]la's desperate situation, just like ερήμα. Therefore δαπινά/δαπεινά fits perfectly meaning-wise. It does of course bring up a Δ for T thingie, but what are your comments so far? Chronographos 21:41, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

No, I wouldn't write that phrase either. Now, you may well be special (a deranged fellow who can't refrain from Ad hominem attacks?), but please refrain from such comments, because for each one you make I will be on you. Decius 10:21, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Why can't you take a joke? Do I give you the impression that I get phazed by your pernicious homophobia? I don't, so deal with it Chronographos 10:50, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

it looks as if a whole new katadesmos was in the works, just for Chronographos :) dab (ᛏ)

well, that sounds slightly more tenuous. The "L" could be an unfinished "E" because the woman realized the E shouldn't be there. The Π however would be correct, and there was nothing to stop her from completing it. The dagus hypothesis I like better, "help me, for I am the one invoking you, around here, and am bereft of all friends". I'm not saying it's impossible, of course. For such considerations, we would really need to see a closeup photograph of the thing. dab (ᛏ) 10:41, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

The meaning of the ΔΑΓΙΝΑ........ phrase is most closely mirrored by the "Sola, perduta, abbandonatta" aria from the "Fanciulla del West"! :-P I see your point, and if you look at the Katadesmos pic carefully, there just might be a scratch that would turn Γ into a Π. But if so, why did the people with physical access to the tab not read it as ΔΑΠΙΝΑ in the first place? Chronographos 10:50, 28 July 2005 (UTC) (BTW they say that Makron was the dead guy in whose grave [Phi]]la slipped the tab. Isn't it gross?)

[edit] "Katadesmos" or "curse tablet"

The term "curse tablet" is found much more often in the scholarly literature than is "katadesmos" (Google Scholar: 103 vs. 11; Google .edu: 67 vs. 12). On the Web at large, "Pella katadesmos" is more popular than "Pella curse tablet", but this includes many WP mirrors and plagiarists, and popular literature. (Interestingly, neither term appears in Scholar or .edu.) What's more, "curse tablet" is plain English, which is preferred by WP policy, and indeed is the only form used in the quotes in the article. I suggest we move the article to "Pella curse tablet". Comments? --Macrakis 16:09, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good to me; how's the web with "-wikipedia"? Septentrionalis 19:04, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Excluding the term 'Wikipedia' only removes the honest mirrors, not the many plagiarists; if you look at the search results, you'll see that there is a huge amount of copying of the same few texts, some from Wikipedia, others from who knows where. These days, using random text from Wikipedia (often without acknowledgement) is used as a search engine spamming technique.... Scholar, .edu, and Books (9:0) are more reliable that way. --Macrakis 16:22, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I must agree; another problem is that katadesmos shows up outside Rnglish, and "curse tablet" doesn't. When I looked for English pages that exclude one and not the other, and avoided the key phrase "curse or magic spell" there were about a dozen valid google results each way. Moving. Septentrionalis 19:40, 5 December 2006 (UTC)