Talk:Philip Sheridan

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The following users are actively contributing to this topic and may be able to help with questions about verification and sources: Hlj (Hal Jespersen) (talk • watchlist • email)

Contents 1 Concerns Regarding Native American Affairs 2 Shelling? 3 General Rewrite Proposed 4 Birthplace 5 updating 6 Edits of March 23

[edit] Concerns Regarding Native American Affairs

I see several problems with this article: specifically, it implies that Sheridan's treatment of the Cheyenne was proper or neccesary, and portrays the Native Americans as murderous savages. The "excesses" this article describes were actually massacres of the most appalling nature, often involving women, children, and unarmed civilians. The winter raids, also described in this article, targeted innocent tribes south of the Arkansas River, who were in fact abiding by their respective treaties.

Sheridan's quote, "the only good Indians I ever saw were dead", has indeed been validated; the comment was made to Chief Tosawi, of the Comanche Tribe, when he surrendered at Fort Cobb in late 1868.

Consult Dee Brown's "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee" for more info. I find this rather disturbing, to be totally honest, and hope that it's corrected. The article, in my mind, appears to misconstrue and justify the senseless murders of hundreds of innocent Native Americans. 69.171.26.112 01:24, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

• I too have read Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee. These are the primary battles and skirmishes between the Indians and the Federal troops or state militias during the Winter Campaign and the spring following. At least those I know about. Do you know of any more or which of these groups were not involved in previous fights and attacks against civilians?

• Sand Hills (Indian Territory); 10-13 Sep 1868; Cheyenne
• Big Sandy Creek (Colorado); 15 Sep 1868; Cheyenne
• Beecher's Island (Colorado); 17-21 Sep 1868; Cheyenne
• Prairie Dog Creek (Kansas); 14 Oct 1868; Cheyenne
• Beaver Creek (Kansas); 18 Oct 1868; Cheyenne, Lakota
• Beaver Creek (Kansas); 25-26 Oct 1868; Cheyenne, Lakota
• Wilson's Fight (Kansas); 19 Nov 1868; Unknown tribe
• Washita River (Indian Territory); 27 Nov 1868; Cheyenne
• Soldier Spring (Indian Territory); 25 Dec 1868; Comanche
• Mulberry Creek (Kansas); 29 Jan 1869; Pawnee
• Sixteenmile Creek (Montana); 7 Apr 1869; Blackfeet
• Paint Creek (Texas); 7 May 1869; Comanche
• Elephant Rock (Kansas) 13 May 1869; Lakota
• Spring Creek (Nebraska); 16 May 1969; Lakota

The Winter Campaign followed several Indian attacks on civilians such as Turkey Leg's Raid, Nebraska, 6 Aug 1867; Tobin Massacre, Nebraska, 10 Apr 1868; Pawnee Fork, Kansas, 18-21 Aug 1868. As for the slaughter of innocents during war, you have to remember that the Civil War was just over. The shelling of cities like Vicksburg and Atlanta also involved the deaths of thousands of civilians, and both Sheridan's sweep through the Shenandoah and Sherman's march through Georgia were destruction several magnitudes greater than the Winter Campaign.

— XtraQ 04:12, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Shelling?

What are your sources for "The shelling of cities like Vicksburg and Atlanta also involved the deaths of thousands of civilians"? Do you have any specific casualty figures? I have never heard claims that approach that magnitude. Also, the Valley and the March were destructive primarily to property and animals, not civilian lives. Hal Jespersen

• James M. McPherson's book, Battle Cry of Freedom: The Civil War Era, Ballantine Books, 1988, ISBN 0345359429 (which won the 1988 Pulitzer Prize for History) puts the estimates for civilian deaths during the war at 50,000. Other estimates have it in the hundreds of thousands. The mention of assaults like Atlanta, Richmond, and Vicksburg was intended to show that no consideration was given to civilian deaths during campaigns. As for the Winter Campaign, it was designed to deprive the tribes of their means to wage war, by burning their lodges, destroying their provisions, and killing their horses. Sheridan's memoirs are on line if you wish to read them. — XtraQ 17:37, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Interesting. I see McPherson put it into a footnote and admits it's a guess because he says there are no good estimates. It is also in the context of a book on refugees, which means that disease and exposure are factored in. I have never seen any reports of widespread civilian deaths based on the few times artillery bombardments were used against population centers, or by Sheridan or Sherman in 1864. Here's a quote, for example, from Cannan's Atlanta Campaign:

On 9 August, Sherman set about making Atlanta "too hot to be endured." A massive bombardment was maintained for about a month and 5,000 shells were thrown into the city by Federal cannon. Fires broke out, buildings were destroyed, and civilian casualties were incurred. During the bombardment, a family of six was killed when their bombproof was struck by a direct hit, one woman was struck down and killed while ironing her clothes, and a little girl was cut in two by a shell that came through the roof of her house. Despite the heavy shelling of the town, only some 20 civilians were killed. Many Atlantans were able to boast about surviving close calls, such as the 30 women shopping at a market when it was blasted by Federal shells. Though somewhat shaken by the experience, the women were otherwise unhurt. Hood protested the bombardment as uncivilized but Sherman disagreed. Considering the town a military target, he continued shelling the town. (emphasis added)

Anyway, if you or anyone finds more specifics, let me know. (I'm not challenging any info on the Indian-related actions, BTW, just Civil War.) Thanks. Hal Jespersen 19:21, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

• Thanks for forcing me to keep sharp. I forget sometimes that discussion pages are not oral conversations. I read Civil War stuff from time to time (my g-grandfather was in the 13th Kansas) but my interest is in the Southern Plains. Most people only know of the Battle of the Washita, but in many ways it is atypical of the Winter Campaign. The Battle of Soldier Spring, which occured Christmas Day following, is much more typical but is generaly overlooked for some reason. If I had the skills, I would write it up. There are, online, at least three of the more notable accounts of the battle: (1) the account found in Carbine & Lance, (2) Col. AW Evans report printed in the Chronicles of Oklahoma, and (3) an article from the Daily Oklahoman relying partly on accounts of the Indians who were there. — XtraQ 21:27, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] General Rewrite Proposed

This is not my area of expertise, but I propose a general rewrite of this article. It omits many of Sheridan's accomplishments and seems to imply that he acted out of some sort of vindictiveness. He did not. The missions were assigned to him—generally for his ability to accomplish them with a vigor and after lesser means had failed. — CPret 13:47, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I went ahead with the rewrite. Besides any errors I may have introduced there are a number of areas that may need more investigation:

1. The Virginius incident in 1873 was not included as I could not find out how far along the military preparations got before diplomacy ended it.
2. I could not find the source, the date, or the circumstances for the phrase "If a village is attacked and women and children killed, the responsibility is not with the soldiers but with the people whose crimes necessitated the attack". Online quotes generally attribute it to a telegram from Sheridan to Grant.
3. The Indian Wars were much more complicated and important than can be addressed in a simple biographical sketch of one of the participants. In the US the term Indian Wars generally designates the Indian wars occurring between the mid-1870s mid-1860s to the mid-1890s. The Wikidpedia page Indian_Wars, is a list of all the various wars involving the Indians.
   

CPret 16:39, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)

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[edit] Birthplace

The Albany birthplace listed here is the one that Gen. Sheridan gave in his autobiography, but in hindsight this is highly unlikely. This post provides a good background on the possibilities of his birthplace, as well as the circumstances behind why it was never established. And it comes from someone who (supposedly) owns the Sheridan family Bible.

http://genforum.genealogy.com/cgi-bin/pageload.cgi?bible::sheridan::1365.html

The person who made the post has apparently published a book on the General, but I have not read it yet. Paulcleveland 00:06, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

I think here you are questioning whether he was really born in Albany, new york. i read in an encyclopedia that he was born in Albany, New york. It didn't state even the possiblity that this might be inaccurate. i think it is probably a reliable source. ignore this if I'm off. :)

mjbookster 00:41, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

P.S. why would the guy not know where he was born and write in his own autobiagraphy that he was born somewhere that he really wasn't? mjbookster 00:46, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

If you read the article and footnotes, you will see that some historians believe he claimed US birth because he harbored presidential ambitions, which are not possible for those born abroad. Hal Jespersen 15:01, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] updating

While wasting my vacation time, I happened to reread this article and found it lacking any critical assessments of his Civil War career. It is quite hagiographic. I have started updating and adding citations, although this will be a relatively slow process. I don't intend to spend much time on his post-ACW career if anyone wants to jump in. Hal Jespersen 18:24, 8 August 2006 (UTC) Just about done, only the Indian Wars portion to finish. Hal Jespersen 00:09, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edits of March 23

To the anonymous user who has been making dozens and dozens of edits today: you may wish to notice that there is a Preview button that can be used to examine your changes prior to committing them to the database and filling up the editing history with meaningless entries. Also, I hope you understand that I am not trying to give you a hard time about footnotes arbitrarily. This is an article that is fully footnoted, so if you add information into a paragraph and the footnotes for that paragraph do not support the added material, it is necessary to provide additional citations. Hal Jespersen 23:05, 23 March 2007 (UTC)