Talk:Progressive metal

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Contents 1 Therion 2 Cultural Origins & Tool 3 Tool, again, and Silent Lucidity 4 The Mars Volta? 5 Rhapsody 6 Opeth 7 The Black Mages 8 Listen to me 9 Removed Nightwish reference and Symphonic Metal 10 'METAL' 11 Lamb of God 12 Edge of Sanity 13 Progulus 14 Dropped D reference 15 Concept albums? 16 Nightwish is not Prog metal and a new band 17 Coroner's influence on modern Progressive metal, 18 Concerto Moon 19 DELETING A BAND 20 Hardcore/jazz fusion 21 Influential and important artists

[edit] Therion

I'd like to ask, WHY are Therion listed under important artists for prog metal ? I hardly see how they fit into this genre in anyway. If no one disagrees with me I will be removing them.

[edit] Cultural Origins & Tool

I submit that we include "Great Britain" in the cultural origins box to the right of the article, since King's X and other American pioneer prog metal bands cite Yes, King Crimson, the Beatles, and other Brit bands as major influences. Besides, Yes and King Crimson were heavy at times (and for the times) in their own right (Hello? KC's RED album? Yes's DRAMA?).

Secondly, I really think that Tool needs to be excluded from the "list" of artists. I know I'll catch flak for this, but there seems to be some disagreement on where Tool fits. I propose nu-metal. Tool has all the criteria:

1. Syncopated drum track with heavy open chord guitar crunch in between downbeats of most measures (see most of Aenema)
2. Lyrics usually centering around youthful frustration or focusing on shock value alone ("Stinkfist"...?)
3. I don't know who Tool cite as their influences. Can anybody help there?

Finally, I wonder if Mastodon should or shouldn't be included in the list. I actually feel they are more accurate and deserving than Tool. Let's kick around this idea and see what we come up with...--Mikepope 03:05, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, the statement about "lyrics usually centering around youthful frustration" is downright false. And they cite King Crimson as their biggest influence. Other than that, yeah, they are alternative metal (or "nu metal", although I don't know what that means anymore), but they're also prog metal. Like how Symphony X is both prog metal and power metal.

Oh boy, you are not ready to undertand Tool. Keep trying and listen to a lot of music.Dexter prog 03:58, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh boy, you have no idea how much you just unintentionally parodied the stereotypical Tool fan. So what, you're, like, smarter than everyone now? Please. Ours18 17:36, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

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Tool in my opinion are closer to math rock than anything else and just happen to have a heavy influence

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You should check Arguments About Tool's Genre & Categorization, i think it's best that Tool stays on the list, even if it isn't categorised just as prog metal. Refrigerator 21:35, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tool, again, and Silent Lucidity

Ok, Tool deserve a mention. And in the article it is stated that it is only a fringe prog metal act. But I wonder why they are introduced in the third paragraph in a verbose way, saying why they are not really prog metal, but could be seen as such. They are no typical prog metal band and should be mentioned further below.

Theisorder of jazz is claimed to have anything to do with the extreme and perfect (if infinitely complex) order of progressive metal. Likewise quotes are heard all around. Many musicians do cite some jazz-labeled artists as having some influence, but the reverse is much more likely. Blades 19:00, Dec 31, 1969 (EST)

You're kidding, right? Ask any progressive metal musician, and chances are they'll list at least one major jazz influence. You might prefer progressive metal as a style, but there's no arguing the fact that jazz has had a profound impact on the genre of progressive metal. --Plattopus 16:40, Jan 5, 2005 (UTC)

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I don't think that Skid Row belongs under in the category of prog metal. I would put them under either glam or thrash. TimothyPilgrim 03:29, Feb 21, 2004 (UTC)

I don't think Tool, Skyclad, Vintersorg, Children of Bodom, King Diamond, and a bunch of other bands are progressive metal, I don't even understand how some of these bands would have made the list.

I would definitely say that Tool are deserving of a mention, but I agree that those other bands do not belong in prog metal.

Tool might deserve a mention, but I'm not sure that that mention should be in a progressive metal list. Does the use of odd and unorthodox time signatures qualify a band as prog metal? If so, then I have dozens of bands to add to the list. It seems to me a lot of people want to see their favourite band as something new and different and add it to the list - progressive metal or not. —Quirk 14:49, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Tool also uses a lot of interesting lyrical themes, many of which other groups in this genre don't go near. It's progressive, but I don't know if progressive metal is the right term. --Spartacusprime 19:15, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

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Do we really need the list of progressive metal artists in this page? Perhaps create a List of progressive metal artists page to house them? --Plattopus 16:19, Jan 9, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, the list is way too long. However, I think that there should be some examples on this page as well. --Jannex 09:41, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

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I don't think Tool should be listed in the list of important/influential bands. I think the band should rather be mentioned somewhere in the text above, stating that it's not a prog metal band but draws some influences from the genre. Possibly instead of that the band X Japan could be added. The band had some major progressive influences which can be heard, for example, in their song "Art of Life" which lasts 28 minutes and invented an own style of band which is highly popular in Japan today. 213.157.1.88 19:49, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Tool are far, far more influencial to progressive metal than 90% of the other bands in the world. They may not fit squarely into progressive metal as a genre themselves, but they have had a major influence on most prog bands in the world today. X Japan, while definitely a prog band themselves, are hardly "influencial" or "important", since they had almost zero commercial success. plattopus^talk 00:36, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Hmm I still fail to see any "major" Progressive Metal Band to be "influenced" by Tool. They possibly influenced bands of other genres but no Prog Metal band. X-Japan on the other hand even created their own "style" of music which is really successful in Japan and slowly starts to be accepted over here, too. 213.157.7.178 18:05, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Dream Theater is one just off the top of my head. Portnoy is constantly talking of Tool are a major influence of the latter DT stuff. plattopus^talk 11:15, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Mars Volta?

Are these guys really prog metal? I wouldn't think so, but they've been edited out and back in, now. —BenFrantzDale 15:24, Apr 25, 2005 (UTC)

I put them back in... because I see them as eligible for inclusion in both the prog rock and prog metal articles. Sure, they're not Opeth... but metal is a big part of their sound. plattopus^<smal>talk 15:33, Apr 25, 2005 (UTC)

The Mars Volta is progressive rock, but not progressive metal. From what I've seen, they do not dabble enough in metal to warrant this classification. Spartacusprime 18:54, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

no, they are not metal

[edit] Rhapsody

Hey these guys need to be mentioned. I know some of their stuff turns almost 100% classical, but in 5 albums they have possibly the best 8 or 9 songs in the genre. Listen to dawn of victory, flames of revenge, and holy thuderforce if you dont believe me.

Rhapsody are in no way progressive metal, and definitely not an "influential or important" band. plattopus^talk 02:38, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

they are more symphonic metal than prog though it is somewhat similar... panasonicyouth9

Rhapsody is prog/power metal. Deimoss 23:19, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Opeth

Sorry guys, but Opeth ain't "black metal." If you want to hear black metal, listen to Burzum, Mayhem, Emperor, Immortal, Darkthrone, etc. They do not sound like Opeth at all. Opeth borrows much more heavily from the death metal genre, particularly the band Morbid Angel. Listen to the vocals for a start, which are not high pitched and screechy like in black metal, and instead are deeper like those found in death metal. Also listen to the song "Masters Apprentice" to hear some clear Morbid Angel rip offs.

• Response to above comment*

Woah, woah.... True Opeth are death metal: to get technical Progressive Death Metal/Progressive Folk, and of course theyre are nothing like te previously mentioned Black Metal bands, but their very earliest work, for example their debut album, "Orchid" does touch on the style of Black Metal. Search enough and you will be able to find the first Opeth logo, which has a much more grim appearance and an inverted cross on the stem of the "p". Ever wonder why that was? Mikael Åkerfeldt grew up listening to Bathory and other classic Black Metal bands, and it was only about the time of Orchid being released that they started to take a more death-like approach.

Chöm

[edit] The Black Mages

Who added this japanese prog band? i havent heard of them before and their influence usign video games hasnt been a big influence. im gonna get rid of it un less someone tells me other why this band is so influential on prog metal? panasonicyouth9

I saw that they remade the FF7 Boss Theme, but thats about all i saw. I would say just get rid of em. Deimoss 23:22, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

The Black Mages perform Final Fantasy songs live, and are led by Final Fantasy's music composer. They aren't prog or metal. --Terminus-Est 00:34, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually listen to them. They are 100% metal, because they are not just "performing" Final Fantasy songs but rearranging them so that the songs are "metal" in the end. I also feel that they are "progressive" because every of their song includes usually just "a bit" original FF music and the rest is usually jamming showing of the virtuosity of the bands members. Should definately be added. 213.157.7.178 18:02, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Listen to me

If you want to realise what's true Progressive Metal, listen to Dream Theater. That's what I call "ProgMETALL". All other bands imitate Dream Theater. If you like to contact me, I'm waiting... Aeternus (new member of Wikipedia)

Symphony X is prog metal with "balls" (a thing Dream Theater only show with the Train of Thought album :-). Pain of Salvation is prog metal, and very different from Dream Theater, much, much more progressive! But don´t get me wrong I really love Dream Theater and I have all their albums, including live ones. I just don´t want to see someone make such a silly comment on a genre that is very prolific, and by it´s own progressive nature, very very diversified. Loudenvier 13:02, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

DT has had plenty of songs with balls, TOT was just an album of nothing bu those, symphony x has plenty of soft songs too --E tac 07:04, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

What about DTs album "Awake?" Dream Theater is both Prog Metal and Prog Rock.

[edit] Removed Nightwish reference and Symphonic Metal

I´ve removed the Nightwish reference because it is not a prog metal band. It´s a very straight foward power metal band with some symphonic elements (the voice of Tarja alone do not make it a Symphonic Metal band, as it was wrongly stated on the before-mentioned and removed from the article phrase :-). I think this kind of argument around Nightwish and Scandnavian bands being or not progressive to be misleading. Regards Loudenvier 13:06, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Good edit. marnues 00:24, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, you're definitely right about Nightwish not being prog. But if you think that they are not symphonic metal, than you probably have not heard many of their songs, "Ghost Love Score" for one. They are definitely a symphonic metal band.

[edit] 'METAL'

First off, Tool aren't metal. They (and King Crimson, their gods) deny the prog label as well. Lamb of God aren't progressive, they are metalcore. Mars Volta are not metal. At all. Period. Metalheads would kick the shit out of you if you wore a Mars Volta shirt to a show. Why don't I just put Beethoven and Radiohead on here? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gatesofawesome! (talk • contribs) 21:18, 21 June 2006.

Lamb of God isn't metalcore. They're extreme groove metal. Or something. But not metalcore. Not prog metal either, though.

• Explain how Tool isn't metal, please. Spartacusprime 19:16, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Near-total lack of metal instrumentation, different intent, no real metal historical backround (ie, they didn't evolve primarily out of metal) the consensus of the metal community and if that chart on Tool's talk page is any indication, there's something near a consensus among established music sources that they are more rock than metal. Ours18 14:16, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

"Near-total lack of metal instrumentation"...um...you mean guitars and drums? Tool use guitars and drums. "Rock" and "metal" are not exclusive terms, in fact, if you are a "metal" band then you have to be a "rock" band as well, because metal is a form of rock. Even the most out-there metal bands like Cynic are still rock. And, the "consesnsus of the metal community" clearly doesn't include major music publications, such as Revolver (Tool was listed around #11 or #12 on their list of the "heaviest things ever" in the cover story of last month's issue) and Rolling Stone (who describe them as metal in their reviews). You have a right to your opinion, but please never assert that there is a "consensus" that your viewpoint is correct when you have no evidence of this besides a poll on a wikipedia talk page. And, to respond to the original topic starter, Tool do not deny the prog label, they embrace it.

[edit] Lamb of God

Why is Lamb of God listed as an influential artist in Prog metal? They make decent enough metal music, but their sound isn't really prog at all; it's mostly just a mix of thrash and hardcore.

 They are Prog-Death metal? maybe?
 Deimoss 05:07, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edge of Sanity

Hmm, shouldn't there be some mention in here of EoS's Crimson albums (the original Crimson in particular, probably the first single-song concept album in the death metal arena) ?

[edit] Progulus

I added a link to Progulus.com for the external links portion. It was removed, but I feel it should be there. What better way to learn about Progressive Metal than to listen to it. I'm not an owner or DJ of progulus either, btw, just a fan.

I added it again, we'll see if we can get this on. It's neither spam nor advertisement. This is not a comercial website, it's a listener driven site for the exploration of the progressive genre. UniversalMigrator 22:34, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dropped D reference

I'm sorry, but I'm fairly sure the reference to King's X "creating" Dropped D tuning is wrong. Isn't it used in some classical music with violins or similar instruements? Even if it isn't, isn't it used on Led Zep's "Moby Dick"? Even if it is right, is it really necessary to include that part of the article? GrantRS 15:15, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

   dropped d sucks anyway, I think it should be taken off cause its an embarassment to prog

Dropped D was created by the first person to tune his low E string to D. Duh! (Okay, no more joking.) Spartacusprime 18:56, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree Dropped tunnigs SUCK, but this is not a valid statement for removing it. As you may know, Dream Theater (creators of Prog metal. Yes they created the genre) have a song called Home which is in drop D an it is an excellent song. -- Dexter prog 19:16, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

"Creators of prog metal?" Fates Warning and Queensrÿche anybody? And how is drop-d an embarrassment to prog metal? It's just a tuning. Ours18 19:48, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Queensrÿche is just a GLAM metal band and Fates Warning a heavy metal which later on started to use some progressive influences. -- Dexter prog 20:57, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Concept albums?

Just because a band has ONE concept album, i don't think that counts them in as prog. Prog usually has a technical instrument attribute to it also, and it shouldn't apply to only one album. Queensryche is pretty diverse too, im suprised they're not on the power metal list also, thier queen of the reich stuff was power metal.

[edit] Nightwish is not Prog metal and a new band

And they never will be.

Ok there is also a new band out there called To-Mera. They are Progressvie metal and are being added to the list.

Depite the lack of any arguments concerning Nightwish from your part, I tend to agree. However, To-Mera should NOT be added to this list since it is solely for influential or important progmetal artists. Please add them to List of progressive metal artists instead. Also, why don't you consider registering with wikipedia? Petergee1 11:40, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Nightwish are a strictly Operatic/Symphony Power Metal band, there music is almost all played in 4/4 and it's all pretty straight-forward.

[edit] Coroner's influence on modern Progressive metal,

The article makes no mention of it, though it's undenieable that Death and many other's took a huge influence from them.

[edit] Concerto Moon

Removed 'em. First of all they are not "really" prog but sound more like Japanese Rhapsody of Fire with somewhat virtuosic solos and second they are hardly influential at all. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.157.1.115 (talk • contribs) 13:11, 3 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] DELETING A BAND

Guys, if you don't know a band, do not delete it saying it is not progressive metal. If you can't find the band anywhere try http://www.metal-archives.com/, although they are sometimes wrong (they are humans) -- Dexter prog 22:35, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Dexter, the point of this list is not to be comprehensive and to list each and every progmetal band. It's for important and influential bands. There is another page called List of progressive metal artists. Add those bands there. Thanks Petergee1 18:49, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

but there is people who is constantly deleting influential artists. -- Dexter prog 19:58, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Dexter, the fact that I removed some bands is NOT vandalism. I feel that Unmoored should not be in this list. Its Wikipedia article is incredibly short and frankly, the fact that I've never heard of them leads me to believe that they are neither influential or important enough to include them in this list. As I pointed out, feel free to add them to List of progressive metal artists. The list in THIS article should really only contain the most important artists in the genre, to illustrate the style of music (if I had my way, I would be removing some more bands, but I'm being prudent for the moment). Next, the article about Arcturus does not mention the band playing progmetal. If someone deleted a well-known band like Angra for not being prog (which IMO is only semi-justified), than an obscure band like Arcturus can certainly be removed from this list. I provided a rationale for deleting Iron Maiden in my edit summary. So, before calling people vandals, try to come up with some arguments why those bands should be included in this intentionally incomplete list. I'm reverting once again. Petergee1 15:56, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

The fact that you have not listened to them proves you don't know what music they make. They are one of the pioneers of the progressive death metal in Sweden, so removing them is not justified. Here you have info on them: http://www.metal-archives.com/band.php?id=6369 -- Dexter prog 17:08, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I think we already have the most important prog death metalband in this list (Opeth). Why not put Amorphis in there as well (sarcasm intended). Anyway, while I still feel Unmoored does not belong in this list, I will not revert again right away to avoid an edit war. I may do so in the future. Anyone else care to add to this discussion? Petergee1 19:56, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hardcore/jazz fusion

Dexter, why do you keep reverting this paragraph (to which I did not contribute btw) without giving any explanation whatsoever? This isn't vandalism which you can go and revert without a comment, this a paragraph that someone put some effort into. At first glance, it doesn't even look that bad or irrelevant. Before removing paragraphs like those, please explain yourself. Oh and 86.3.205.7, why don't you register with Wikipedia? Much easier that way. Petergee1 13:43, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

The paragraph sounds wrong. Progressive metal has always had jazz/fussion elements and the hardcore/metalcore bands listed are not close to prog metal. --Dexter prog 01:03, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Influential and important artists

This is the place that only the main progressive metal bands can stay. Bands like King Diamond or Iron Maiden have just some elements of progressive metal. They can stay at the List of progressive metal artists, but it's ridiculous for them to stay at "Influential and important artists" section. So please, do not add them there anymore. --Λeternus 16:33, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

I think it makes even more sense for a band like maiden to be on a list titled "influential and important" artists, since they are both extremely influential and importnt to the progressive metal genre. --E tac 18:26, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

There are a few bands listed as influential that didn't influenced anything (e.g.: Zero Hour) but lets just leave the list as it is. --Dexter prog 19:20, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Should the list be retitled then, or perhaps include a few seperate more specific lists, such as on the thrash metal page. --E tac 19:40, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Now I've re-read the title, it's ok. It says influential and IMPORTANT artists, so I guess Iron Maiden could be added being an important artist... --Dexter prog 19:49, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok, now decide what bands can stay there, and remove those who are not influential. --Λeternus 23:17, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Queen is not influencial nor progressive metal --Dexter prog 02:09, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Queen is not influential? I'm willing to bet most progressive metal bands would list them as an influence. --E tac 02:23, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

And where are '70s prog rock bands (except Rush)? They are the most influential bands in the prog metal genre... --Λeternus 12:57, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

whe are adding prog metal bands, PROG METAL. It would be wrong to add prog rock bands because we then would have to add jazz and blues bands that influenced prog rock and classical music artist and etc. --Dexter prog 15:30, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I added Rush along with Queen as you can see, this is why I suggested the possibility of creating seperate lists.--E tac 17:08, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok, but what do you suggest for this lists? --Dexter prog 17:48, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Well possibly a list for bands who had a major influence on the genre but may not be considered progressive metal themselves. --E tac 18:10, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Sounds fine to me. --Dexter prog 19:04, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Two lists: 1. The main progressive metal bands and 2. bands that are not prog metal but who had a major influence on the genre. So mates, what do you think? --Λeternus 20:45, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like a plan. --E tac 20:46, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Agree. --Dexter prog 21:39, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps this list should just be removed, it will be a constant source of debate and any of the most important and influential artists will already be mentioned in the article.--E tac 11:19, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

You're probably right. I totally agree with removing the list. --ΛэтєяиuS 10:04, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

OK mates, do you all agree that the list should be removed? If yes, go ahead - do it. --ΛэтєяиuS 20:03, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

If the List of progressive metal artists is going to be kept there should be a link so people can find it. Truemetalfan March 18, 2007

There is a link under "see also" Nevermind you just added it I think. I thought it was already there. --E tac 00:02, 19 March 2007 (UTC)