Talk:Public school

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Contents 1 Independent school (UK) 2 Tautology 3 Public school (US) 4 Mistake about Tuition. 5 Outside view about naming argument 6 This is a disambiguation article? 7 State schools, or whatever 8 Restructuring of this article 9 What needs to be done 10 New additions 11 Article states as fact a matter of dispute. 12 Proposed merge 13 Fine Institutions 14 Scotland 15 British public school reputation nonsense 16 Split 17 Bradford Grammar School

[edit] Independent school (UK)

The information about what constitutes a Public school deserves its own article; it is already overly long for the flow of this article, and can be expected to grow somewhat. However, what should it be called? Public school (Britain)? Public school (British)? Public school (British English)? Any other suggestions? James F. 18:13 1 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I'd suggest Public school (UK), myself. With Public school (US), if the American usage ever gets more material. Public school itself could then just be a normal disambiguation page. -- Oliver P. 19:36 1 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Well, done. Hope it's as you expected :-) James F. 20:25 1 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Cool! And well done on updating those links, too. That must have taken a while! -- Oliver P. 21:17 1 Jun 2003 (UTC)

The page has been moved to Independent school (UK) --Philip Baird Shearer 20:41, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, wrong move. The "Public School" has been an institution, since the foundation of Eton College in 1440, for members of the Public in the Classical sense.I'm sorry that it is so distressing for so much of humanity to discover that their ancestors were not not of the Public but rather serviced them. A member of the Public proper in Mediæval Europe was a Peer, Baron, or Gentleman, some Merchants included (only due to financial pressure!). For the privelege of educating their offspring these New Athenians paid handsomely.Fee paying Grammar schools were created in the 17th c., but universal free education had to wait until the 19th c.-State Schools.

The term Public referring to the general populace is a misnomer and has been abused since Universal suffrage.Brendandh 03:48, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I hate to complicate things but I think there may be an issue with terminology on this page. I've spent almost all my life in the UK school system (Surrey and Hampshire if it helps) (in my final year of university now) and I was always under the impression that 'public school' refered to a free, government run school (aka state school) and 'private school' refered to a fee-charging institution (apparently called 'independant schools' according to this article. I've never heard the terms used any other way. It may be worth adding a notation about the abiguity of the term since I know I'm not the only one who uses the terms this way.144.124.16.33 10:59, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

If that is what you thought then you have been under a false impression all of your life, going against what pretty much everybody else in England would think of. Jooler 13:14, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

You're definitely right there, also there are other defining factors. The main one of these factors is that English public schools are registered charities, and also part of the Public Schools Charter. (pra05rt) 08:50, 19 November 2006

The definition given for British "public schools" is definately wrong. In Britain this term is reffered to Government funded "free schools". However, I do not have the time to correct this, so can someone else please do this. In fact the definition given here is actually referring what we call in England as "private schools".

Um... do you live in Britain? Everyone knows public schools refers to a select set of private schools.--Zoso Jade 12:32, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

No, it's definitely right. In England, 'public school' refurs to a, so called, 'independant school'. Private school and public school mean the same thing. P.S. It would of taken far less time to change this, then to write a message saying that you don't have time to change it; Oh! the Irony! Please will you sign your posts, it only takes four ticks (well, tildes actually) Eŋlishnerd(Suggestion?|wanna chat?) 21:22, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, technically public and independent aren't the same thing as the public schools are just a set of the private schools--Zoso Jade 12:32, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Public schools are a section of the independant sector, look at this article: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=406528&in_page_id=1770 this should explain a lot User:Pra05rt

[edit] Tautology

I've removed "In the United States, most public schools are still called public schools." which seems to be nothing but a tautology, and "(and so a reversion to one original meaning of private education)", which doesn't seem to make sense. If anyone kinows what these mean, please feel free to explain in the article. -- Oliver P. 21:21 1 Jun 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Public school (US)

I've just realised after trying to disambiguate links to this page, that there is no Public school (US) pages. Furthermore there are nearly 40 links that mean public school in the British sense and only 5 that mean it in the US sense. So why has the UK sense been pushed off onto a page of it's own rather than the other way around? Mintguy 10:10 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Because one could (and I may well eventually) write several tomes on the UK meaning; as it is a source of possible confusion, it helps to have a disambiguation page. Think of this as an extension of Differences between American English and British English. As Oliver said above, "if the American usage ever gets more material [...] [this] could then just be a normal disambiguation page".

James F. 11:48 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)

You miss my point. There is NO disambiguated page for the US meaning. It is not disambiguated. Nine times out of ten times, when a person creates a link for using the words "public school" they mean public school (UK), it makes sense to have this page with that meaning with a suitable disambiguation block at the top directing to public school (US) for the other sense. Mintguy 17:31 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)

No, I don't think I did; my counter-point was that this is a temporary state of affairs betwixt having a proper disambiguation page here and having none - we have instead a partial disambiguation page.

I admit that it might make more sense to have the more 'popular' definition (id est, what is now at Public school (UK)) moved to Public school, and the one less so (id est, the short commentary at Public school) moved to Public school (US), but then we'd get jumped on by the largest minority of Wikipedia readers - those from the US.

I never meant to imply that this was a satisfactory state of affairs, merely a workable one.

James F. 03:37 20 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Also, remember that there are schools in other countries than the UK and the US. If I wanted to write an article about secondary education in, say, Poland, then how should I distinguish between private and State-run schools? Should I refer to the latter as "public schools" (which may be confusing for the Britons) or "state schools" (which may be confusing for the Americans, since in Poland the "State" is the whole nation, not a subdivision)? How should I refer to schools run by local authorites, cooperatives, religious orders, etc? Please help. --[[User:Kpalion|Kpalion (talk)]] 14:35, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Using the term "state schools" will not be confusing for most of us Americans, since the term isn't used here for anything other than public schools or universities run by the states. --68.80.78.11 19:46, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Mistake about Tuition.

I took out this sentence: Due to state funding, however, this fee is typically much less than at private institutions, particularly for residents of the state in which the school is found.

According to most studies, including those by the Federal and State governments, State Universities are more expensive than Private Universities. That is, the Private Universities usually have a higher Sticker Price, but what you actually pay out of pocket is less. I will provide a reference shortly.

Can you post references to these studies? further discussion Jkiang 18:54, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

I initially had read it in the Wall Street Journal. Although I can no longer find the reference. I just did some searching and found some things at the Federal Governments' site ( NCES.ed.gov PDF, but it is all sub-categorized and does not make a direct comparison between all public and private schools. So, I dont mind if you revert back to the old version.

Granted, if it turns out that Private Schools are more expensive than Public Schools, I believe that the difference is fairly small. But, like you said, I should find some references. --Ian Lewis 01:52, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Outside view about naming argument

I'm not entirely sober, so bear with me a moment... I'm coming to this as a result of a question brought on Talk:American English. We here in the US don't regard the British idea of what "Public School" means as a matter of further British Imperialism. When Brits try to foist their ideas of the definition upon us, we instead take it as yet another instance of their pushing obstinate arrogant ignorance upon the rest of the world. I know this is a view most of the rest of the world is too ready to place upon Americans, but that's how we view it; point made. That said, I went to "public school" in the US, and what it means here is "schools funded by the government in order to fulfill the mandate by the government that children must receive X-amount of instruction". There it is, for what it's worth. Over and out. Tomer ^TALK 07:03, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] This is a disambiguation article?

Is this a disambiguation article? The only real option is to go to Independent school (UK). Maybe it should become an article, and lose the {{disambig}} tag.--Commander Keane 16:42, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Tag removed.--Commander Keane 00:02, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

I have removed the text on English public schools because an article exists with details on that subject called Independent school (UK) (Pax Scotland).

Given that any page which has a link to this page public school will in the most part either mean a US/Scottish etc or English meaning of the word and there are now article on those subjects this page should be a disambiguation page so I have restored the disambiguation template. --Philip Baird Shearer 20:41, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] State schools, or whatever

So do we somewhere have an article on free or low-cost, government-provided, roughly K-12 education? I don't know exactly what we should title it, but it would seem a very important article, and I cannot find a link from this page to anything like that. -- Jmabel | Talk 20:20, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Found it. It's Public education. - Jmabel | Talk 02:55, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Restructuring of this article

I think it is best we try to restructure the article a bit by region. I think the English Speaking Nations part is fine, but needs a bit more depth. The inclusion of Nations should go by political region and geographic region.

One possible structure would be:

• Public Schools in English speaking nations

• Northern/Central America
  • Canada
  • United States of America
    • Virgin Islands
  • Mexico
  • Cuba
• Europe
  • UK
  • France
  • Germany
  • Denmark
  • Italy
• Asia
  • Central Asia
    • Japan
    • China
    • Afganistan (Yes, it is part of Asia, not the middle east)
  • Asia Minor
    • etc.

Each entry should be a short summery of an article to which it links. Can we agree on this? --OrbitOne 00:01, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What needs to be done

1. Following the regional structure, we need to add more regions to this list with a short summery of the school system; best if it is a summery of an article about the public schools of the region listed.
2. The pros/cons of public schools vrs private schools.
3. An official ranking of school systems around the world, must be refered from an authoritive source (Read UN).

--OrbitOne 01:06, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

First I think we need to find out how widespread the two mutually contradictory useages are. Does anywhere other than the US speak English and generally refer to the government schools as "Public Schools"? Queensland Australia uses the term "Public School" for Grammar Schools and other relatively expensive and exclusive fee paying schools, and State School for the free Education Queensland administered and funded kind. There is a third tier of Catholic Education System schools and (mostly small) private schools charging modest fees, most affiliated with evengelical churches. Of course in Australia, while the States fund State Schools, the Commonwealth tosses huge sums of money at the richest Public (i.e. Private) Schools and little of nothing at the State Schools.

As to the list, there is likely to be no clear pro/con list, as each country, state and even region will have different pressures on their state and private school systems. Rankings? Well, you might be able to apply them to systems, like Queensland State Schools (maybe), but with schools within a system ranging from poorly resourced suburban schools to showcase schools, it wouldn't be very useful.

Alex Law 06:01, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New additions

Most of the material is taken from Wikipedia. I think it is good enough. --OrbitOne ^[Talk|Babel] 10:58, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article states as fact a matter of dispute.

"In England and Wales, "public school" refers exclusively to fee-charging independent secondary schools that are members of the Headmasters Conference - see the article Independent school (UK) for that sense of the term."

As the article linked makes clear there are differing definitions.Independent_school_(UK)#Differing_definitions Being a member does not make a public school or absense deny it that status. It's shorthand not an absolute so we shouldn't state it as an absolute. I will try to soften the definitionAlci12 10:59, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

It's all a bit blurred. A lot of leading independent school which are in the Headmasters' Conference don't usually refer to themselves as "public schools". But various fairly indistinguished private schools which are not in the Headmasters Conference do purport to be "public schools".Bill Tegner 23:31, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed merge

I find this article confusing and unhelpful. The phrase "public school" can mean two opposite things. Both of these need a whole article, and indeed both of them already have it: Public schools (UK) and State school, so there is duplication of data anyway. The specific American usage is better discussed at Education in the United StatesFurthermore, this article also discussed schools outwith the English-speaking world, where there is no particular reason to translate their local names with this confusing phrase at all. I suggest we make this article into a short disambig, and merge the bulk of the article into State school - which is synonymous. --Doric Loon 19:26, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

However, none of those articles are a complete overview of all public schools around the world. --OrbitOne ^[Talk|Babel] 19:30, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with a merger. I agree that the article is slightly confusing (The opening paragraph is horribly disjointed) but we should (As, I believe, OrbitOne was implying) explain what "Public School" means. To do that we have to explain what it means in every country the term is used, give examples, explain any discrepancies, etc. I just don't see that working well on a disambiguation page, which is supposed to be a "non-article pages that contain no content."

If you are implying (by saying "specific American usage is better discussed at Education in the United States") that we should disambig and link to the "Education in the United States" article (and, by extension, link to Education in the United Kingdom and any other "Education in" article) we would only be making it harder on the user to understand the meaning and differences of the term. Plus, moving all of this content to "State school" would make it confusing for American users because, as the State school article mentions, "State School" has it's own distinct meaning in the U.S. - Ektar 17:49, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with a merger too, principally because "state school" has it's own definitional problems: in the U.S., its primary meaning is a state-funded college or university. - Jmabel | Talk 06:26, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Here's an idea. Create a topic called "Government School" or "Government-owned(or government-run) School" and then merge "State school" and "Public school" together onto the new topic. Problem solved. Clarity given. - Ron2 02:26, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps the information in this article should be taken elsewhere, but precisely because of the two opposite meanings, it shouldn't be a straight merge. A disambiguation page between State school, Education in the United States, Independent school (UK) and anything else you can think of is probably best, so that folk can find what they were looking for. --Scott Wilson 14:03, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

The article should be 'state school' or 'government school': the aim should be to remove ambiguity. Most schools in the world are 'public' in the same sense that a pub is a 'public house', but the word 'public' does not imply the sponsorship of governments, which is the key factor here. If Yanks want to avoid "using the Brit term" (there was and is a huge debate over the Gasoline/Petrol article naming - what a yawn), then go for 'government school' or something, but the aim should be for clarity. Actually, 'government school' is the term used in Hong Kong (where I am), so that's my preference anyway!--219.79.220.134 00:10, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I think that the general concept should be at 'state school' or 'government school', but we also need an article at this title that explains the evolution of the term "public school" and how it came to mean something different in (most of) the UK and Ireland than elsewhere. - Jmabel | Talk 17:17, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I removed the merging tag. I think the general opinion is against a merge with state school, for several reasons. Also, state and governments schools are well defined, generally as schools that are funded or owned by governments. Public schools however are historical institutions that advanced civilizations when the concept was first used in, well, what age were public schools first seen?

I think a disambig with a new catagory (schools by country) and a new article about the historical institution would be the best fit here. --OrbitOne ^[Talk|Babel] 22:31, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Strong Oppose Although they can mean the same thing, I think it's important to differenciate between the two. There are obvious differences between the articles, and I think they should remain two, not one. Englishnerd 15:39, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fine Institutions

What I haven't found on the brief perusal of this talk page is anybody talking about WHY the difference between Britain(that means Scotland too!) and the rest of the world? Scotland and England had a series of grammar schools from the 15c. where the better off sent their brats. In those inequal societies one could only vote if one paid enough taxes over a certain level. Exactly the same as Greek and Roman Democracies, where a third-ish of the population could vote only because they owned property. These were known as the 'Public'. ergo Public School in Britain.Brendandh 03:24, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Any takers on this highly realistic and true argument?

Sorry, no. Although another article deticated to this subject is worthy of your time, making a lenghy section for that woul detract from the point of this article. It is notable, I agree, but it doesn't fit in with the scope of this artle. --OrbitOne ^[Talk|Babel] 21:59, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Scotland

This edit cites nothing and more or less reverses what we say about Scotland. It's also terribly written. I do not know much about the use of this term in Scotland, but I certainly do not trust the unreferenced word of an anonymous editor who can't even write English decently. Can someone please sort this out and provide a reference? - Jmabel | Talk 00:50, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] British public school reputation nonsense

The article's mention of Lord Wimsey (a fictional character, for God's sake) disparaging Winchester College has no place in this article. It is used as some sort of explanation of the varying "desirabilities" of British Public schools. Winchester is among the most presitigous of British public schools and simply finding one (not even real) person that doesn't like it isn't enough to state it is less desirable than any other school. I have heard real people say disparaging things about virtually all public schools; the statement is completely pointless and I am removing it.--Zoso Jade 12:36, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, Lord Peter went to the junior foundation, Eton, so he was possibly a bit jealous. But please tell me what he said.Bill Tegner 23:26, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Split

This article should be split as the UK and non UK meanings are radically different from each other. I propose to split it into Public school (United Kingdom) and Public school (state) making this an disambig page Any objections? SqueakBox 17:53, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't see the point of that, as Public school (state) would be so unspecific. I should also point out that the Scots don't use the term in the same way as the rest of the UK, so Public school (United Kingdom) is a misnomer. Xn4 11:49, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bradford Grammar School

The photograph is of Bradford Grammar School, not Bradford General SchoolBill Tegner 23:21, 3 March 2007 (UTC)