Talk:R. Daneel Olivaw

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Just to let anyone who is listening know - I just posted a link to this in a comment on slashdot, so this page will probably get a half dozen edits in the next couple hours. --Raul654 13:33, 18 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Contents 1 Also Known As... 2 Giskard invented the Zeroth Law, did he not? 3 Daneel invented the Zeroth Law 4 Violation of the Three Laws

[edit] Also Known As...

I'm not sure it's a good idea to have Daneel's alter ego names listed in the opening paragraph of the article -- wouldn't those constitute spoilers, since it's supposed to be the big surprise in Prelude to Foundation that Demerzel and Hummin are one and the same, and he's actually Daneel? I'm going to remove the parenthetical "also known as" from the opening sentence, since the alter ego names are listed in bold later in the article (below the spoiler notice). -- Dan Carlson 13:15, Jun 10, 2004 (UTC)

Dan - yes, I'm inclined to agree. →Raul654 15:11, Jun 10, 2004 (UTC)

Same problem with redirection

I don't know if this is the right place to note this, but I think there's another (major) spoiler due to the fact both Chetter Hummin and Eto Demerzel pages link to Daneel's one. Even though linking those pages is a good idea, is there any (reasonable) way to prevent users being redirected without any spoiler warning? →ale_bahgat 12:10, Nov 2, 2005 (UTC)

I thought so, too, and then I read Talk:Eto_Demerzel. -- Perfecto  01:58, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Giskard invented the Zeroth Law, did he not?

I changed this line:

Daneel invents the Zeroth Law of Robotics after both robots come to see the incompleteness of the existing Laws of Robotics.

To read:

Giskard invents the Zeroth Law of Robotics after both robots come to see the incompleteness of the existing Laws of Robotics.

From Prelude to Foundation:

(Daneel speaking to Seldon):

But I had a . . . friend twenty thousand years ago. It seemed to him that there should be a still more general rule than any of the Three Laws. He called it the Zeroth Law, since zero comes before one.

The robot who first advanced the Zeroth Law died--became permanently inactive--because he was forced into an action that he felt would save humanity, yet which he could not be sure would save humanity.

This indicates, to me, that Daneel cannot have been the inventor of the Zeroth law. If anyone has better information, please correct me.

[[User:Shred|Shred -§-]] 01:51, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Daneel invented the Zeroth Law

I have here Robots and Empire. It's the spanish translation, but it's a good one (Plaza & Janés Editorial). I roughly translate (chapter 63):

(Daneel to Vasilia)

There is a law that is supperior to the first law. «A robot cannot hurt the human race or, through inaction, allow that the human race being to come to harm.» I consider it now the Zeroth law of Robotics. The first law should say: «A robot may not harm a human being, or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm, except where such action would conflict with the Zeroth Law.»

It was Daneel the one who invents the Zeroth law. I suppose Daneel says later that Giskard invented the Zeroth law because it was through their mutual discussion that he was able to state it. Further, if I recall correctly, it was Giskard the one that mentions that something is incomplete in the Three Laws of Robotics, but it was Daneel the one that invented the Zeroth law.

So, I change the line to the original form.

--Canek 22:05, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)

==

This is going to sound horribly petty but.... in the article introduction it says Daneel was contructed to be impossible to disinguish from humans "like many robots of the period."

If memory serves, Daneel was one of a kind at the time (other than Jander). In fact, a lot of "Robots of Dawn" revolved around Falstofe's rival trying to get the secrets of humaniform construction. Even during the time of "Robots and Empire" humaniform robots were quite rare, at least in deployment.

My point is, Daneel was very much *unlike* the robots of his period, him being a humaniform. Should the introduction be changed?

[edit] Violation of the Three Laws

Was or did "Hummin" violate the three laws of robotics? He was seen "protecting" Hari Seldon at the begining of Prelude to Foundation, wasn't he?? - Plau 15:16, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

It is possible that the thugs were humaniform robots themselves, sent there by Hummin/Demerzel. Or, maybe Daneel was able to weigh the options of protecting the future inventor of psychohistory vs. injuring two thugs, and was capable of choosing the former (through Zeroth law).

I thought the fact that the thugs reacted strongly to a weak insult pointed out that Hummin was using his powers on the thugs. IMHO it makes more sense to think of it as action under the zeroth law. --Kjoonlee 16:08, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Or maybe the thugs were humaniform robots.... --Kjoonlee 06:44, 1 December 2006 (UTC)