Talk:Russian apartment bombings

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1 Pointing to Putin
2 References
3 Alexander Litvinenko
4 Counterarguments to FSB theory
5 Snapshots from the Assassination of Russia film
6 Some references (Russian)
7 Talk page references

[edit] Pointing to Putin

The conspiracy theory I gathered was that prime minister Vladimir Putin had nothing to show in the coming elections. His policy was showing no good results. After the bombings and the war answer, Putin's new party successfully passed over any of the candidates. Can this theory be attributed to anyone, so that it is put in the article? --Error 01:47, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

From all appearances, this is most likely what happened in short and in all clumsiness and insolence in the making of the Kremlin politics recently given that there is a team rather than one man to be blamed for although he must be involved in everything but as a cover.--BIR 07:33, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] References

Any references on the official (Amir Khattab and Gochijaev) version? Did they suggest any other suspects later? Why Litvinenko books were not cited? Are they considered a reliable source? Biophys 04:21, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

How and when all these terrorists were convicted? I was waiting for a month. There are no any references in the official part of the story. Should the unreferenced statements be deleted? Biophys 06:05, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

The Russian language version of this article does have some references, perhaps a Russian speaking editor could look at them :-). According to policy things should be verifiable by sources other than Wikipedia. It looks as though the English version mirrors the Russian article and that article and hence this one is thin on references. I would try and get some references rather than delete it as the conviction's are central to the article and it wouldn't make sense without reference to them. Alex Sims 06:20, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I could only find the official answer from the general prosecutor's office to a Duma member, in Russian and its computer translation. ilgiz 10:05, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, probably this is it. However source says that all claims about these people are made by prosection or investigators. It seems that all or most of these people were not convicted in a court. If this is indeed the case (is it?), nobody can say that "The following people either delivered explosives, stored them, or harbored other suspects", as written in this article. Any opinions? Biophys 05:12, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

There was a 1.5 month trial in the end of 2003.[1] computer translation, [2] computer translation The press was not allowed, so the journalists had to resort to intermediary sources. The verdict was public. [3] computer translation ilgiz 06:51, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alexander Litvinenko

Article is missing information about Alexander Litvinenko --Lee Hunter 17:20, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Counterarguments to FSB theory

The Russian article has a section on counterarguments to the theory on FSB involvement. I think it needs to be translated - I'd do it myself but it mentions a lot of names that I don't know how to translate. Esn 22:57, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Why do you think this should be translated? Could you just briefly summarize here the conterarguments from this Russian text? If there is anything, we can write it down. But I found only one thing. They say that the original chemical test was declared inaccurate due to contamination of the analysis apparatus from a previous test. But this has been already stated in this English article. Biophys 03:13, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Here is computer translation. The article is being updated these days, and the pro and contra arguments are scattered around all sections. ilgiz 04:24, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

The best way to organize material is to have all pro arguments in one section and all contra arguments in another section (as it is right now). I agree that the governmental version looks too weak. It is supported by only one reference, whereas the opposite verison is supported by 21 references. If someone could provide more good references about different people mentioned in the governmental version who were convicted or killed - that would be great (I could not find anything!). Also, more can be said about Gochiyaev - who he was and what he claimed. Another interesting question is about 3 FSB persons who conducted the "exercise" in Ryazan. I remember their photos. What are their names? Are they still alive or dead? That would be important to include. Biophys 17:11, 8 December 2006 (UTC) Sorry, the official version was supported by four references. Still, could be more. Biophys 17:14, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

(Fixed the computer translation link). I saw the photo-robots of the 3 suspects in a short video clip on Google that seemed to be a part of the "FSB blows up Russia" narrated documentary.ilgiz 09:34, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Here are the screen shots from the advocacy documentary "Assassination of Russia" by Transparence Production, parts of which were re-published in "Crimes of the Kremlin" by Journeyman Pictures. ilgiz 11:48, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

So, are they alive or dead? Obviously, they worked for FSB if the claim by Patrushev about the "exercise" was true (and they also worked in FSB if the alternative version is correct). Can we include some of these images in the article? Biophys 15:27, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

A staged interview with one of the imitation perpetrators was shown later, but the interviewed man was shown from the back. I added the screen shot below. I haven't investigated any news on Gochiyaev or the FSB version's participants. I marked the screen shots with the {{promophoto}} template. I believe a fair use clause might apply to these screen shots, but the drop-down list of licence types in the upload page doesn't have such option. Perhaps, the "fair use" clause wasn't considered precise enough. ilgiz 08:59, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I have made a translation of the Counterarguments section in the Russian article, but I would like to have it approved here before adding it, as this is clearly a sensitive issue:

"Officially, Trepashkin was charged with keeping official documents at home (thus breaching security) and not over accusing FSB of the bombings. His conviction had no connection to the bombings. ^{[citation needed]}

A parliamentary enquiry was made to the Prosecutor General of Russia; the response was that the events in Ryazan were indeed a training exercise. According to the Prosecutor General, initial investigations included an attempt of a controlled explosion of 3 kilograms of the substance from the sacks. The substance failed to detonate. The more detailed investigation ordered by the Prosecutor General concluded, on the basis of a pyrotechnical analysis, that:

The sacks contained sucrose — a disaccharide based on glucose and fructose. No traces of explosive substances (trotyl, hexogen, octogen, tannerite?, nytroglycerine, tetryl, and picric acid) were detected. An investigation of the clock, the batteries, the detonator, the lamp, and the wires showed that although this itemd constituted a single electronic device, it was not, however, capable of producing an electric discharge at the signal from the alarm clock and was not an explosive device.

It was also noted that:

...the operation in Ryazan was planned and executed in an inappropriate way. In particular, the matter of the limits of the operation was not looked into. There was no contingency plan of informing the local authorities and the police of the training nature of the operation. in case of its detection.^[1]

Critics of the FSB involvement theory suggest that Novaya Gazeta is funded by George Soros via the Open Society (Otkrytoe obshchestvo) fund and the journalists' views are therefore biased."

My opinion is that this should be added, for although it does look somewhat weak, it is nevertheless a sourced opinion, an official opinion I might add. Without it, the article looks too POV. --AVIosad^(talk) 22:25, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

The official charges are described on the "Charges" page of the trepashkin.ru web site. I have noticed that the prosecutor ("обвинение") and the inquiry, or enquiry, ("следствие") took the same side in finding that Trepashkin had disclosed state secrets. Because the conviction mentioned only an internal information disclosure, I believe that the judges have apparently demoted or disqualified the former charge. I could not understand what exactly was considered a state secret.

По версии обвинения, проходя с 1984 по 1997 год службу в органах безопасности КГБ СССР и ФСБ РФ, Трепашкин копировал служебные документы, которые в дальнейшем незаконно хранил у себя дома.

Разглашением сведений, составляющих гостайну, следствие считало передачу Трепашкиным своему бывшему коллеге - полковнику ФСБ Виктору Шебалину - материалов старых сводок прослушивания телефонных переговоров членов гольяновской объединенной преступной группировки (в них, по мнению следствия, содержались данные о методах работы ФСБ).

"According to the prosecutor, Trepashkin had been illegally copying office documentation and storing it at home when employed by KGB and FSB from 1984 to 1997.

"The inquiry considered a state secret disclosure the fact that Trepashkin had passed wiretaps of the Goliyanov gang to his former colleague, FSB colonel Victor Shebalin. The inquiry believed the wiretaps contained sensitive details about the FSB investigation techniques".

Details on the sentence are given further on the same page.

Первый процесс Трепашкина проходил в Московском окружном военном суде с декабря 2003 года по 19 мая 2004 года. Трепашкин был признан виновным в разглашении секретных сведений без признаков гостайны и незаконном хранении боеприпасов. Обвинение в злоупотреблении должностными полномочиями (по ч. 3 ст.285 УК РФ) было прекращено в связи с истечением срока давности. Подсудимый не признал своей вины по всем пунктам и заявил, что дело в отношении него было сфабриковано. Он был приговорен к 4 годам лишения свободы в колонии-поселении.

"The first Trepashkin's trial took place in the Moscow circuit military court between December 2003 and May 2004. Trepashkin was found guilty of disclosing internal information and illegal storage of arms. Another charge of office power abuse (part 3, article 285 of Criminal Code of Russian Federation) was lifted because of expiry. The convicted did not acknowledge his guilt on any charge and stated that the case was fabricated. He was sentenced to 4 years of imprisonment in a penal colony".

My translation above may not be correct or accurate.ilgiz 01:19, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

According to Novaya Gazeta, Trepashkin was convicted with "illegal acquisition and storage of arms" (article 222, part 1) and "disclosure of information that is a state secret, without the signs of treason" (article 283, part 1).[4] ilgiz 01:44, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I can translate the Russian section if desired, but there are no strong counterarguments in it. Just insistance by the FSB that the bag contained sucrose, and that Trepashkin was charged for revealing state secrets, again by the FSB. Should one expect that as a counterargument? Doing so would be based on the presumption that the FSB, if guilty of the bombings, would have charged him with their tru grievance, namely that he inteferred with an FSB cover-up operation. This beggars belief.

[edit] Snapshots from the Assassination of Russia film

The wanted list published after Ryazan incident, 1999.	The wanted list, photo-robot 1 of 3, 1999.

The wanted list, photo-robot 2 of 3.	The wanted list, photo-robot 3 of 3.

Yuriy Tkachenko, an explosives technician who removed the wires from one of the bags.	The mechanism removed by Yuriy Tkachenko from one of the bags, according to the documentary.

Nadezhda Yukhnova, an telephone station operator who intercepted the suspicious conversation with a Moscow number starting with 224, the Lubyanka (FSB) exchange.	Aleksey Kartofel'nikov, the alert resident who noticed people carrying bags from a car into the basement.

Interior minister Vladimir Rushailo reports on a diverted apartment bombing attack in Ryazan. 24 September 1999. Putin would give the same explanation some time later.	FSB director Nikolay Patrushev reports on an emergency readiness exercise in Ryazan. 24 September 1999, 30 minutes after Rushailo's report.

FSB's proof of the Ryazan training exercise. The man shown from the back in an interview was presented as one of the mock perpetrators.

[edit] Some references (Russian)

Biophys 00:50, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Another interesting source: Who is Mr. Putin? (Russian) by Pribylovsky and FelshtinskyBiophys 02:48, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

It says (Russian):"Теракт в Буйнакске 4 сентября был подготовлен и осуществлен Главным разведывательным управлением Генштаба РФ во главе с генерал-полковником Корабельнико-вым. Операцией руководил начальник 14-го управления Главного разведывательного управления генерал-лейтенант Костечко. Осуществлением теракта занималась группа офицеров ГРУ из двенадцати человек, посланная для этого в командировку в Дагестан."Biophys 05:01, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

1. On 20 May 2004, an article in the Los Angeles Times described the conviction on an unrelated state secret charge of Mikhail Trepashkin, ... I couldn't find the LA Times article, but this Guardian article essentially says enough to cover the first two citation demands of that paragraph.

2. In fact, Seleznyov was referring to an unrelated explosion which indeed happened in Volgodonsk three days earlier - This is a very strong statement, as it presents a statement by one of the interested parties, Genprokuratura, without proper attribution. Besides, the provided source states that the explosive device in question was hand-grenade based... --Illythr 23:58, 10 March 2007 (UTC)