Talk:Space colonization

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Space colonization was a good article candidate, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. Once the objections listed below are addressed, the article can be renominated. You may also seek a review of the decision if you feel there was a mistake. Date of review: 22 August 2006

Space Colonization WikiProject edit

Core concepts Space colonization Interstellar travel Planetary habitability Space and survival Space habitat Terraforming Colonization and terraforming Colonization of the Moon Colonization of Mars Colonization of Venus Colonization of Mercury Colonization of the asteroids Colonization of Ceres Colonization of the outer solar system Colonization of Europa Colonization of Titan Terraforming of Mars Terraforming of Venus Organizations Mars Society National Space Society

Contents 1 Star Trek: Deep Space Nine 2 Splitting article? 3 split article 4 Objections 5 Sub-standard Writing 6 Moon locales 7 Wikipedia:WikiProject Space Colonization 8 Quote 9 Can asteroids be legaly claimed 10 Failed "good article" nomination 11 Created Sun Colonization Article 12 General cleanup and addition of relevant data and citations 13 Phobos and Deimos

[edit] Star Trek: Deep Space Nine

I contend the inclusion of Deep Space Nine as an "Earth colony" - not only was it not constructed by humans, it wasn't owned by humans or even the Federation (who humans are part of), it was a Bajoran possession. Furthermore, it's not operated exlusively by humans, and is not a colony anyway - it's an administrative centre between Bajor and the Federation, and later a military HQ and staging point. Pomegranate

Sounds like good reasoning to me, I'm taking it out. Bryan 20:37, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Splitting article?

Once upon a time there used to be a separate article for space habitats (as in space stations that are permanent and effectively self-sufficient colonies) but it got merged into here to be grouped in with all types of off-Earth settlement. However, in various advocacy groups I often see a very strong distinction being drawn between this type of settlement and the kind that's on a planetary surface; some people think gravity wells are awful things to be stuck in, some people think you can't have a self-sufficient colony without the resources of a planet to draw on and so you might as well be located on the surface of one. I personally think both types of colony seem just fine to me, but that there still may be sufficient differences to warrant separate consideration. Anyone else have opinions on the matter? Bryan 20:43, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I agree that there is a split in the community support here. I think that debate should be mentioned in the Location section, and the sub-titled organized according to these debates. I'll do that and see what people think. Chadlupkes 20:28, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] split article

I moved the fictional depictions party to Space Colonization in Popular Culture.

Thank you --noösfractal 09:37, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Objections

Hello, I added the objections section and the favourite anti-space arguments of my group of friends (some of whom are pro-space, some con). I hope the arguments put forward are OK, and that I am not treading on anyones tows for lumping a big lets not in the middle of your lovely article which kinda says lets go!. I really like the whole topic, and I thought it would be polite to just explain what I dumped. All the best, --Dan|^(talk) 21:23, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I saw (and appreciate) the various 'counter objections' that have been added to the objections section that I started. This is good, but the different arguments (pro and con) should be more clearly separated under this heading. I have trivially split the arguments into an "objections" section with a "counter arguments" sub section, however, a series of paired paragraphs under sub sub sections might be better. i.e. "OBJECTIONS: Point 1 : Counter Point 1 : Point 2 : Counter Point 2". This is kinda how the section was written, but their was no clear distinction between the pro and con arguments, which made it a little confusing to read. Sorry if my edits bother the author... -Dan|^(talk) 11:11, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sub-standard Writing

This article gives the impression that it was written by some middle school kid, saying obvious things without actually knowing anything or providing insight of any kind. 165.123.140.215 07:05, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

"Obviousness" is in the eye of the beholder, bear in mind that ideally a Wikipedia article should be a good introduction to a subject for someone who doesn't know anything in particular about it to begin with so we should make sure all the basics are covered (either here or in related articles with prominent links). That said, by all means take a crack at cleaning up the language and adding more non-obvious or insightful material. Almost all Wikipedia articles are in need of that sort of work. Failing that, perhaps you could provide some more specific suggestions to help suggest stuff for people to do? Bryan 07:45, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Moon locales

I took out ", but the most likly place for a Lunar colony would be the equator (ease of access from Earth) and to get hydrogen from the poles would be like going from Los Angeles to New York for a glass of water." The Moon's rotation is so slow that getting to the poles is not that much harder than getting to the equator. The poles have an additional potential advantage of constant access to solar power, so it is not obvious where the best place for a colony might be. On Earth, access to water has often determined where people settle.--agr 13:47, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:WikiProject Space Colonization

A few of us have been trying to start up a new Wikipedia:WikiProject Space Colonization (shortcut WP:SPACE) to organize work on topics of direct relevance to this article. Hop on over if you're interested. - Reaverdrop 16:08, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Quote

Konstantin Tsiolkovsky (1857–1935, was a Russian and Soviet rocket scientist and pioneer of cosmonautics): "The Earth is the cradle of humanity, but one can not live in a cradle forever!". --ajvol 10:02, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Can asteroids be legaly claimed

Does anyone know how to legaly claim an asteroid, can asteroids be legaly claimed so no one else can colonize them, hs it ever been done?

According to current law, resources cannot be claimed "in situ", but can be claimed after extraction. Following this logic, an asteroid cannot be claimed as property intact, but one could mine the entire thing and claim the billion or so tons of material produced. siafu 13:06, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Failed "good article" nomination

This article failed good article nomination. This is how the article, as of August 22, 2006, compares against the six good article criteria:

1. Well written?: There are too many one-sentence paragraphs, and a general lack of flow in the writing. The long quote from Michael Griffin really doesn't belong in the lead section; also, the "Justification" section suffers from erratic capitalisation, and is too much a list of different people's views.

2. Factually accurate?: It seems generally accurate, although very speculative. Citations would help greatly to determine the its accuracy. As it is, the lack of citations is the major reason why the article fails. As it is, many sections have the air of original research; it's hard to tell whether the ideas mentioned have the support of authorities in the field, or whether they are simply the speculations of the author.

3. Broad in coverage?: My knowledge of the subject is not wide enough for me to comment on the article's thoroughness.

4. Neutral point of view?: Generally the article has a very pro-colonization tone. The objections to colonization are not treated very sympathetically, and are rebutted within their own section as well as in the section devoted to rebuttals. It might help if someone opposed to space colonization helped to edit these sections.

5. Article stability? Seems stable enough.

6. Images?: Given the length of the article, more images would be welcome, in order to break up and illustrate the text.

When these issues are addressed, the article can be resubmitted for consideration. Thanks for your work so far. --MLilburne 14:27, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Created Sun Colonization Article

I created an article on the Colonization of the Sun. Please give it a chance. Mrld 17:44, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

As amusing as the idea is, I'm afraid it runs afoul of Wikipedia:Nonsense and Wikipedia:No original research, particularly because it only cites Wikipedia itself. Note also that the method described would not work, because there is nothing with a melting point greater than the equilibrium temperature at a few solar radii from the surface. The only reasonable method to survive so close to the Sun is to hide behind a very good mirror, or to build a Dyson sphere. Michaelbusch 17:54, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] General cleanup and addition of relevant data and citations

I've added some data pertaining to various locations, advantages, disadvantages. I've also cleaned up some of the one-sentence paragraphs and removed some redundant entries and unverifiable assertions. I've also marked a few items as citation needed in the hopes the original author or someone with them will provide them. I'll try to check back over the next few weeks and clean them out if not provided (I'll be gathering some of mine as well). I have more citations to add myself, but don't have them handy right now.

It seems to me that the article also needs a more cohesive structure. Perhaps something along the lines of breaking out the aspects of colonization such as as general risks that each location shares, energy generation methods, etc.. This would make the location-specific text not need to repeat the risks/dangers that are common. Instead these sections could illustrate how they deal with the risks/requirements. Or am I out in left field here?

I intend to get to more of this over the next few days to include a better footnote/references section - but that I'll tackle last. If someone wants to help out with that part I'd be happy. :) Ucntcme 23:21, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

I've removed most of your additions. While they are interesting, they are lengthly, uncited, and largely redundant. The material concerned would be appropriate on the various colonization sub-pages (e.g. Colonization of Mars). The article definitely needs clean-up, but in the form of editing rather than additions. Michaelbusch 16:41, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Then the sections on locations are redundant, incorrect in several cases, and uncited as well. For example, there is no dispute or debate as to whether Mars has valuable ores, it is a known fact.

It is not. There are very few concentrated ores on Mars. I'm working with 4Frontiers at the moment, and we've barely managed to find water and iron. Michaelbusch

Perhaps the locations would be better replaced by a See also section that links to the various subpages instead of calling each out and talking about them. IN particular the energy section is heavily in need of citations and makes claims that are vague and unverifiable, as well as entirely irrelevant. The Method section contains no methodology at all. The Space Transportation Section makes several claims that are uncited (per Wikipedia docs, references to Wikipedia pages don't count as citations), the section about Analogues is flat wrong, as the /cited/ material I put there demonstrates, and lacks any citation whatsoever. Likewise the Moon section makes assertions without cite. I am curious as to why you removed the citation needed tag from assertions that clearly needed citation. Is that not what it is for? But hey if you want this article to remain incorrect, unverifiable, and generally of poor quality I guess I can take my experience, knowledge, and references, of the subject elsewhere. No skin off my nose.

I'm not suggesting that. I want you to provide your citations, and remove redundant material. I didn't intend to remove the citation needed tags, but that may have gotten lost in removing the redundant material. I agree strongly that the article needs serious revision, but your additions make the article far too long and confusing. Query: what exactly are your experience, knowledge, and references? I have not seen the last. Michaelbusch 22:53, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Phobos and Deimos

The article said, incorrectly, that Phobos could contain water ice. We may say definitively that it does not. Spectral observations (Rivkin et al. 2002, Icarus 156, 64-75) indicate a composition similar to dehydrated carbonaecous chondrites, while radar detects no ice (both in the near surface, from Arecibo, and at depth, from MARSIS on Mars Express). On theoretical grounds, we would have expected both objects to devolatize by now. There may be small amounts of water in hydrated material, below the threshold imposed by the spectroscopy, but there is no ice. You need to be in the outer main belt to retain water ice in vaccum over the age of the solar system. I have edited the article to reflect this. Michaelbusch 01:29, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks; very informative. Tell me, roughly how big could these 'small amounts' of hydrated material be though?WolfKeeper 01:55, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

<1% water by mass (or it would have shown up spectroscopically). That is a conservative upper bound. Andy Rivkin may be able to get bounds lower than that, but I am not certain. Michaelbusch 05:09, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

So, still some chance then, ~1% hydrates would probably be enough to be useful, there's far lower concentration in useful ores on Earth. But I'm not exactly banking on it. Spectroscopic analysis presumably wouldn't rule out hydrates under the 100m of regolith in any way either, but it's a lot of digging, and I bet it's nasty, sharp abrasive stuff to dig through.WolfKeeper 06:54, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

The Arecibo radar penetrates to ~2 m depth. MARSIS penetrates to several km depth, and sees nothing, except for an echo from the rim of Stickney. There is no ice there. Hydrates are another matter, but if there were any at depth, you'd expect exposures in fresh craters, and there are none. The Arecibo radar tells us that the near-surface material is smooth on cm-scales and very low-density (1.4 g/cm^3), so digging would not be a problem, especially given the low gravity. But we now run into original research. Michaelbusch 07:15, 22 February 2007 (UTC)