Talk:St Neots

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Contents 1 Abbreviation of 'saint' 2 County name disagreement 3 Tidying up templates 4 A421 and A428 5 removed reference to 'Barry Oakley' 6 Tidy the external links section 7 Change to the introductory paragraph 8 Pronunciation

[edit] Abbreviation of 'saint'

not St. Neots?

No. English place names with "St" in them do not generally use a full-stop (period). This is the same for Dr and Mr and Mrs in most cases in the UK (note not U.K.) Mintguy

So the convention is different than in the U.S. (where US would be incorrect)? --Jiang

Yes. Note St Albans, Bury St Edmunds, St Paul's Cathedral, St Ives etc..

Interestingly, I think UK usage has changed quite recently. Thirty years ago, and certainly fifty years ago, a full-stop would have been correct for almost any abbreviation - or so I seem to remember from childhood.

My memory isn't positive enough to say this with certainty, but I think I'm right. (It might make an interesting historical study for someone - but not me!) Chris Jefferies

I'm no expert. But a quick google tells me that the general rule is that contractions that include the last letter of a word shouldn't have a full-stop. So for Reverend both Revd and Rev. are correct whilst Revd. and Rev are incorrect. Mintguy 11:08, 6 Oct 2003 (UTC)

[edit] County name disagreement

There is a clear Wikipedia policy on the use of British county names. I have reverted Owain's changes here (and in the history article) because they contravene this policy and in the process make the first paragraph of the article less clear and straightforward. Owain, if you wish to make these points I suggest you make them in the relevant county articles, not here in an article on the town of St Neots. Thanks Chris Jefferies 13:14, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Yes you are right, there IS a clear policy on British county names (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_%28places%29#Counties_of_Britain). If you read that page you will see that referring to administrative counties and traditional counties in the same article is acceptable. e.g. "Coventry is in the West Midlands, and within the traditional borders of Warwickshire". Re-instating changes. Owain 16:52, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Owain, don't you think you are taking the Coventy example out of context? Here is an extract from the policy

Carried with 13 in favour, 2 against.: We should use the current, administrative, county. E.g. Eton is in Berkshire, not Buckinghamshire.

I have removed no references to St Neots being in the administrative county of Cambridgeshire, in fact I've made it clearer...

This approach is consistent with most local and national government literature, some private sector literature, will be familar to most readers and writers, and indeed the approach will apply even if boundaries change again. It is also easy for people to find out where a particular village is, as maps with administrative boundaries are freely available online. While historic county maps do exist, it is hard to find one with maps of modern urban areas and city and borough boundaries transposed against historic counties. It is also consistent with other encyclopedias such as the 1911 Encyclopedia, which specifically calls Cromarty a 'former county'.

Yes, I've read that repeatedly and it is still selective. The Encylopaedia Britannica for example still lists administrative and traditional counties in the first paragraph of an article...

We should mention historic counties in articles about places and in references to places in a historic context, but only as an afternote. If a place is a unitary authority and not administered by a county council, it is acceptable to use ceremonial counties as geographic references, as this is often more in line with common usage. As has been pointed out, it is not useful to state that "Luton is a town in the county of Luton".

In historic references we should make sure to note that the county at the time was not the same as the county now, if relevant.

The policy is clear. We should use the current county name and any mention of an historic county should be an afterthought. Your changes have no place in the first paragraph of the St Neots articles. Please restore the text to its original form in both places. Thanks Chris Jefferies 17:44, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The policy is clear - there is a list of "acceptable things" according to the policy, and a list of "not acceptable things". Repeating the entire preceding discussion doesn't change the examples of acceptable things! My wording is compatible with the policy, and the Encyclopaedia Britannica usage. It adds value to the article and takes nothing away. What could possibly be wrong with that? Owain 18:05, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

What is wrong is that you are ignoring the main 'thrust' of the policy. You are denying its main points and are focussing on minor ones. The basic points from the policy are - We should use the current, administrative, county. E.g. Eton is in Berkshire, not Buckinghamshire. and We should mention historic counties in articles about places and in references to places in a historic context, but only as an afternote.

I am not prepared to argue about this Owain, I went through that process at considerable length as part of agreeing the policy and have no intention of going through it all again. Please restore the article. Thanks. Chris Jefferies 11:42, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Tidying up templates

The article is becoming top-heavy with tabular detail so I've moved the geographical table and location map to the section on geography and brought the Market Square image up to the top. The river template seems unecessary in an article about a town. There is already a link from this article to the one on the River Great Ouse and readers wanting more information on the river will visit that page. Chris Jefferies 16:45, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Is there any particular reason to put the table of geographical information right at the top of the page? It seems to me to be more appropriate to have a small image at the top of the article, and to have the geographical detail in the section 'Local geography'. I'm swapping these two items back, but leaving the other changes in place. Chris Jefferies 09:28, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

I think there are a number of reasons why the infobox should be at the top. It's firstly a quick way of having all (ok, some of!) the vital information quickly conveyed to the reader as soon as they get to the page, all the other pages (bar one) I've seen so far had the infobox right at the top so it's really a de facto standard to have it there (also, if you look at some of the featured articles with infoboxes, they're always near the top), I think especially now the map is inside the infobox it would be much better to have it at the top -- Joolz 12:55, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] A421 and A428

I've just made a small change to the way these roads are mentioned in the St Neots article. The A421 begins just south of the town and runs west towards Bedford and Milton Keynes. The A428 begins on the southern edge of the town and runs east towards Cambridge. The three-mile section known locally as the St Neots by-pass was originally designated part of the A45 when built. Any modern road map should make this clear. Chris Jefferies 08:33, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] removed reference to 'Barry Oakley'

Reference to St Neots being the birthplace of 'Barry Oakley Manchester United legend' appears to be fictional and so I've removed it.

Manchester United players past and present are listed at the club website

There is no record of a 'Barry Oakley'

Google search reveals no Barry Oakley footballer either. A novelist and an Aussie rules football player, but no Manchester Utd player.

[edit] Tidy the external links section

I've removed the repeated references to 'St Neots', or 'Local' as these are redundant, and I've removed the two church links and pointed instead to a single page that lists all the churches. We could replace this later with an article section on the town's church life, I'll try to make a start on this tonight. i also sorted the list alphabetically. Chris Jefferies 13:59, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Change to the introductory paragraph

In my opinion User:Alexander Howard's change from

St Neots is a town of about 26,000 people on the River Great Ouse. It is the largest town in Cambridgeshire, England, (Cambridge and Peterborough are both regarded as cities).

to

St Neots is a town of about 26,000 people on the River Great Ouse. It is the largest town in Huntingdonshire, England, though for local government purposes it is administered as part of Cambridgeshire (and is its largest town after Cambridge and Peterborough, both of which are cities).

has not improved the article. Quite the opposite is true. Surely there's no need to mention the district in the introduction as it is already covered in the information panel and the section on local geography. The new version is confusing as it may suggest to some readers that Huntingdonshire is an administrative county.

The additional text on the bones is also unhelpful in the intro, making it longer than necessary for little benefit. My preference is to revert this change, but for now I've edited it to include a mention of the district. Chris Jefferies 00:51, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation

Could someone who knows add the way the name is pronounced? I have always wondered. Mornington 03:16, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I moved this comment to the bottom of the page (the oldest topics are kept at the top in Wikipedia Talk pages).

St Neots is pronounced 'Sunt Nee-uts' more or less. We need someone with knowledge of pronunciation guides to do the job properly in the article. Chris Jefferies 11:46, 28 March 2007 (UTC)