Talk:Strasbourg

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STRASBOURG EST L UNIQUE CAPITAL DE L EUROPE CONSULTE ET VISITE WWW.STRASBOURG.FR OU WWW.COE.INT. STRASBURG UNIC CAPITAL OF EUROPE STRASSBURG CAPITAL DER EUROPA ESTRASBURG L UNIQUE CAPITAL DE EURPOA ESTRASBURGO LA UNICA CAPITAL DE EUROPA STRASBURGO LA UNICA CAPITAL DE EUROPA

The roman name of Strasbourg is Argentoratum = Town of Silver. The German word Strass or Straß means cheap Silver. So, if u want to translate, call it Silver Town or Silver Castle. It has nothing to do with the german word Straße = road. I'm living in Strasbourg Region and people told me that.

As ist seems, Argentoratum is just a latinisation of the celtic Argentorate - meaning something like "place in the swamps" - which is a much better description than anything linked to silver. The name Strassburg already came up during the roman period and is said to come from "strateburgum", a latin form saying nothing else than the german word: street - fort. That´s what "my guide book" says! But please check the details - I don´t have it with me! The region is "crawling" with false information - or "omissions" - when it comes to history! The only silver I ever heard of in the region is that of the "Silver Valley" (Val d´Argent, Sainte Marie aux Mines) about 50 km south west in the Vosges. I do not think it could have been the origin of the name of a place on the river at that time... Strasbourg is not only called "Capitale de l´Europe" but also "Carrefour (crossroads) de l´Europe". This is still very close to the "obvious" meaning of "Strass(e)-" "Bourgh". I only know "Strass" (with a short "A") as the false jewelry sewed on decorated dresses (also in French) - Never heard of it as silver...(?) but maybe this is the origin. In Summer time the municipality regularly organizes a public summer event called the "Nuits de Strass" (Nights in strass) playing with the double meaning. - I am living in the city (part time).Stephele

Strasbourg is the Parliamentary capital of the EU, and Brussels the Administrative capital. Thus Strasbourg calls itself, rightly IMO, the democratic capital of the EU. Strasbourg is also the capital of Europe as a whole, being the site of the Council of Europe. --Pgreenfinch 22:49, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I am afraid that I must agree with Alba on this one. Brussels, Belgium is much more likely to be considered the capital of the European Union rather than Strasbourg. Both cities are clearly contesting each other for the title "Capital of the EU." Housing the European Commission and the European Council (amongst other EU institutions), Brussels houses the most powerful of the 3 decision-making institutions. Most of the Parliament's work is also conducted in Brussels; Strasbourg being only used for the large plenaries which arguably only sign off on the work already done in Brussels. Many in the EU would say that the only reason why Strasbourg is maintained as seat of the EU Parliament is because certain Member States have a vested interest in keeping some activities in Strasbourg. This is evident by the recurring discussions to move all EU Parliament facilities to Brussels rather than maintain a continued and costly transfer of activities between Brussels and Strasbourg once per month. I believe this phrase in this article should acccordingly be removed, revised or at least a disclaimer should be added to make it clear that this isn't a view shared by all EU citizens. (see Brainbridge T. (2002) The Penguin Companion to European Union, p. 32)- Kimmetje

Alba> There is no such thing as one european capital, as everything isn't located in an unique town regarding the EU (neither Strasbourg nor Brussels). European Union had three capitals: Brussels (BE), Luxembourg (LU) and Strasbourg (FR) (Luxembourg for Justice Court. Also houses the administrative office of European Parliament). Page about European Parliament has a clear explanation about that (see Location paragraph). There won't be a consensus for a few decades and there are countless things that aren't "shared by all EU citizens" (though countless others are shared). -Felipe[1]

this is so cool! you can comment on an online encyclopedia!!

Contents 1 Strasbourg Goat Tests 2 New Infobox Template proposition 3 Get with it 4 "Sometimes regarded as the capital of Europe" 5 eatrasburgo 6 estrasburgo ......strasbourg. 7 Weasel tag for European role 8 First seat 9 Sources 10 Language 11 Saint-Pierre-le-Jeune fresco 12 map placement of Strasbourg 13 Cleanup 14 The German / French name dispute 15 Irish Monks in Strasbourg's history 16 Strange article 17 Spelling 18 Edits by R9tgokunks

[edit] Strasbourg Goat Tests

I am looking for information about the infamous "Strasbourg goat tests" where 600-some goats were supposedly shot with various calibers of ammunition to determine caliber lethality. It is believed by many to have never happened, but I was thinking that people who knew something about strasbourg might know something about these tests, alleged or otherwise. Any information would be great. Thanks! JudgeX 16:20, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New Infobox Template proposition

I'd like to bring your attention to a new - or other - version of the "Large French Cities" infobox presently at use in a few French cities pages. The present version is much too large, partly because it consecrates too much space to information having little importance to French demography and an only distant and indirect relevence to the city itself. Instead I propose to follow a less cumbersome model closer to that used by the New York City article - you can view the new version in the Paris talk page here. Please view and comment. THEPROMENADER 22:18, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

A result of some discussion over the past weeks, there is an updated template available for perusal in its 'published ' form (filled with data) here - all comments welcome. -- THEPROMENADER 07:20, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Get with it

What the heck are you Europeans doing over there? Why does it take an American living in Japan to make these basic corrections? Stop goofing around and lets get some work done! The "show preview" button is an amazing tool. Use it some time, eh? Naerhu 03:14, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Keep it quiet Naerhu, you really haven't done such a great job that day. RCS 11:44, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

C'mon, you know my corrections were essential for a tight page. Admit it, you love my corrections. And it should be "you really didn't do such a great job that day." Love, Naerhu 01:23, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Why, anyway, i've done a better job than you on this page. Cheers, RCS 15:41, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Sometimes regarded as the capital of Europe"

The section Strasbourg#European role needs to be cleaned up a bit:

1. It partially duplicates the final paragraph of Strasbourg#History. In fact there's a fair bit of duplication all-around. For example, the article states no less than four times that the European Court of Human Rights is in Strasbourg.
2. The statement "Strasbourg is sometimes regarded as the capital of Europe as a whole" is unsourced and in any event not really accurate. At most, it would be fair to say that Strasbourg is sometimes regarded as one of the capitals of Europe along with Brussels, Frankfurt, and perhaps Vienna (HQ of the OSCE). The paragraph talking about "the democratic capital of the European Union" should be deleted; it's just a long-winded way of saying that the EU Parliament meets there.
3. The reference to France and Germany "discussing" creation of a Eurodistrict should cite a source and give some indication of what it would mean to get Eurodistrict status.

--Mathew5000 01:34, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] eatrasburgo

estrasburgo cuenta con 280 000 habitantes la comunidad urbana de estrasburgo cuenta con 465 000 habitantes y l eurodistrict de strasbourg-ortenau con aerea metro son 1 060 000 habitantes el eurodistrict es cus+area metro franco alemana. es la unica capital de europa (el continente no solo la ue).

[edit] estrasburgo ......strasbourg.

estrasburgo cuenta con 280 000 habitantes la comunidad urbana de estrasburgo cuenta con 465 000 habitantes y l eurodistrict de strasbourg-ortenau con aerea metro son 1 060 000 habitantes el eurodistrict es cus+area metro franco alemana. es la unica capital de europa (el continente no solo la ue).

[edit] Weasel tag for European role

"Sometimes Strassbourg is regarded as" definitely needs a weasel tag. In normal English sometimes is used as 'Formerly; sometime. [Obs.]' or ' At times; at intervals; now and then;occasionally'. When? On Saturdays? Every second Friday of the month? What the author wanted to write is 'Some people', but since that is a weasel clause', he couldn't. I definitely want to know either:

- On which occasion it is regarded as.. - OR: By whom it is regarded as..

Otherwise, this is a weasel sentence.

[edit] First seat

"First seat" is ambigious. Is it the primary seat of the EP or the place where they first met? If it is the former, it is open to discussion, if it is the latter, it should be clarified.

[edit] Sources

I have now provided sources for the Eurodistrict (its official website, actually, with all facts and figures) and the churchillian origin of the Council of Europe. RCS 10:45, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Here is the English version of Churchill's 1946 speech: [2]. It does not mention Strasbourg at all, so it does not belong in this article. --Mathew5000 21:24, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Language

What language or languages are spoken by the residents of Strasbourg? Give the city's history, shouldn't this be included in the article?

Sca 20:44, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Saint-Pierre-le-Jeune fresco

Maybe somebody has an images of famous Saint-Pierre-le-Jeune fresco, which represents Europe`s states "march towards the cross"? M.K. 09:33, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] map placement of Strasbourg

On the map, the red circle indicating Strasbourg's position is slightly too far north.

[edit] Cleanup

I added that tag because 1) too many pictures throws off spacing. 2) we don't need to bold places. I will try to fix some but I want someone else to look at it before I remove the cleanup template gren グレン 16:09, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The German / French name dispute

Could the involved parties please take a deep breach, leave the nationalist retoric and name calling at the door and please discuss the issue calmly and rationaly here before this little spat over how prominent the German name of the town should be gets rely out of hand. I'd hate to have to protect the article over this. --Sherool (talk) 18:23, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

I never though that following the rules would make classify me to the category of aryanist/nazi! I don't know whats wrong here , supposedly, i am being very nationalist and should not included the Alsatian, or German names because "its changing history." But for some background for everyone to examine here are some disscusions: on my talk page and here,and here, on RCS's talk page. -- Hrödberäht 18:53, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, sorry, aryanization was an excessive term, of course. I apologize. But obviously He of several names has been reverted quite often and by quite a lot of people on this kind of pan-germanic matter. Professing an admiration for Otto von Bismarck - a great man, for sure, but not for Strasbourg, which the prussian armies utterly bombed in 1871 - does make him very suspicious when emphasizing the german name and de-emphasizing the french. RCS 19:39, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

I was born in North Dakota, Bismarck, to be precise(Guess who it's named after). Today, German is the second most spoken language in two states: North Dakota and South Dakota. And Many people around here speak it, which might be a factor for something, but i don't see what is so wrong with following the guidlines of wikipedia? And tell me how im "de-emphasizing" French relations with Strasbourg? -- Hrödberäht 20:08, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

And tell me how im "de-emphasizing" French relations with Strasbourg? By replacing "french language" with "phonetic alphabet" while boldening "german language". Der Teufel steckt im Detail. RCS 21:28, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

The name is already mentioned in French, in fact, it's the first word of the article, so why put what it is in French again after its already been said once, hopefully everyone knows that Strasbourg is in France? -- Hrödberäht 22:58, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

In 1997, before the UEFA cup soccer game Racing Club de Strasbourg vs. Liverpool FC, Liverppols goalkeeper David James answered to the question of what he did know about Strasbourg : "That it begins with an S. I thought it was in Germany !". Liverpool then actually lost 2:3 agg. Today, James is still goalkeeping, but also a regular columnist for The Guardian... RCS 07:09, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Please note that User:R9tgokunks (aka Hrödberäht) has also "germanized" the names in the articles Alsace and Mulhouse, where he replaced the English names "Alsace" and "Mulhouse" with the German names "Elsaß" and "Mülhausen". I have de-germanized the names in these articles, but R9tgokunks may germanize them again, so please keep an eye on them. R9tgokunks has also germanized many other Alsace and Lorainne related articles, such as Neuf-Brisach, Wissembourg, Guebwiller, Marmoutier, etc., where he put the German names on top of the infoboxes, as if German was still an official language in Alsace, which is not the case (only French is official). The same user also made several POV edits, such as in the history section of the Metz article where he described the liberation of Metz by the French and US armies in 1944 as (I quote) "Metz was annexed in November 1944 by the France after a military take-over." Can someone do something about this user's misbehavior? Thanks. Godefroy 21:12, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

It is true - German is no "official language" in Alsace, as anywhere else in France. Just as there isn´t any other language apart from French (no Corsican, no Catalan, no Basque, no Occitan, no Brittannic (?) ...)! - But it (they) should be!! It is not so much because these places once were German (or ruled by (some kind of) Germany) but because that Alsace and big stretches of Moselle are German(+French)-speaking that the German names - and especially the local dialect-forms - should be (and are - no?) mentioned in the articles. In fact France (the effective majority or the "undynamic" system) does recognize - officialy - that there are other (native - "autochtones") languages on its territory - but is extremely reluctant to give them an official status. German is officially recognized as the "langue régionale" of Haut Rhin, Bas Rhin and Moselle - in its two expressions: "Hochdeutsch" as the written form and the local alsatian and lorrain dialects as (mainly) the spoken form. The "Académie de Strasbourg", as representing local body of the ministry of education, has to treat German as such - and organise ("précoce" = early) bilingual education for a growing number of pupils. But thanks to their passivity they did not yet even reach ten% of each year´s pupils. The regional authorities in Corsica and (French) Basque Country are somewhat more dynamic (- but the number of pupils is lower...). There are a few more things to say about "not being official" in France. Civil servants in Alsace and Moselle get higher pay (until today as far as I know) if they speak German. - Not because they are better qualified but in order to give them recompensation for being potentially obliged to deal with citizens who do not speak proper French but only German (which are of cause quite rare these days)! This is an idea from 1919, when the re-take-over was quiet difficult of course, after nearly fifty years "of Germany" and there was a big need for "fonctionnaires" loyal to the "République" in order to replace the German (or German-educated) civil servants. It was brought back after WWII. In France election candidates have to provide a text presenting them and their program (called the "profession de foi" - like an oath of belief at the church) which is distributed to the voters in their constituency. In Alsace (and Moselle?) this text should be in French and German! Whereas everywhere else in France any other language is forbidden on official publications (and sometimes the "préfets" crack down on such papers!) the authorities in Alsace check if the versions cope - i.e. the German has to be an accurate translation of the French version (or vice versa if you really like), but only about contents - not when it comes to style. The former French secretary of education "Jack" Lang (PS) once said on a trip to Alsace:"German is a very beautyful French language." Unluckily most French (and especially Alsatian) politicians are much more "frileux" (afraid) to approach the matter that way. I won´t tell you how to approach the matter. I come from `Germany´. I am author in the German and Alemanic Wikipedia (sometimes also the French and exceptionally others) and the problem (in the German one - in Alsatian we do not have this kind of problem!) is working in another way there. - The Wiki is in the language of one version of the cities names! So we have to choose - either the "official" way - or "our" (should-be-official-too) language. There is nothing to choose here. I think, that even if Alsace had a correct satus - as South Tyrol f.i. - given the (French-Alsatian) situation, the French name should be the first one (internationally official). And it does no harm, if it is explained. But maybe you can find (consensual) ways of giving the "langue régional" some (near-equal) status. Like putting both names (if there are two) in the infoboxes (like it probably should be now in the case of Brittany where biligual name plates for towns are normal now as far as I know). That is just a suggestion. Quarreling about Nations does not help people in Alsace. But they don´t even know that bilinguality (like in Ireland or in Finland, in parts of Canada and Louisiana (?), in Biel/Bienne (Switzerland) or in Brussels) is possible. This is not just a matter of politics - but of information! Knowing about, and being conscious of bilingualitiy is an aim of education - and should have its place in Wikipedia!

And - without wanting to hurt Bismarckians - Bismarck was a great asshole! He made the damned guy who personnally spoiled (drowned in blood actually) our first chances of having democracy (of some kind) installed in "Germany" emperor and he is the culprit responsible of the first separation of Germany, which is still valid - and will of course remain so...!! :-((  ;-) --134.176.67.104 13:23, 22 February 2007 (UTC)Stephele from Deutschland - and Elsass

Didn´t sign...? Und was ist das bitte????: Stephele

German is NOT a regional language in Strasbourg, if you think so, then you are completely clueless and clearly haven't been there. All native Strasbourgeois speak french as their first language, some learn German as a second language. Once again, German is NOT a regional language, Alsatian is the regional language and is indeed a Germanic dialect. But hardly anyone in Strasbourg speaks it (it's more common in the countryside). You can't compare Alsace to Canada or Switzerland. Whether you like it or not, people in Alsace feel French and speak French whereas they do not feel German or for the most part speak German. There's no denying that we have Germanic names and all that, but that doesn't really mean anything. It's not because there are lots 0f Italian-Americans in New York with Italian names that Italian is a regional language over there.

Bravo! Encore un bel exemple de surnationalisme alsacien profrançais! Je me permettrais de vous citer à toutes les occasions données comme archetype de l'alsacien niant de toute force sa "vraie nature"! Dans ce sens là: puisque vous êtes si convaincu de ce que vous écrivéz, pourquoi ne le signez-vous pas au moins??? Short translation: This is a very nice exemple of another very "German" side of the "Alsatian nature": even french nationalism (and of the most primitive kind) is done with utmost German perfectionism! You think I haven't been there? - I live there!!! (...and I signed my text so you could easily have looked that up!) And - I`m sorry but - it rather seems to be you who is clueless. It is no idea of mine that German (Deutsch = (official) Hochdeutsch + dialect) is the regional language in Alsace but it is the Académie de Strasbourg which says so - and everybody there who really has a clue (i.e. local writers, teachers, professors and the people active defending the Alsatian biliguality (French/regional languange))! One thing is certain: I have been in Alsace often enough to know about people of your kind, so I know you really might be Alsatian! Luckily not everybody there is like that - and quite some really do speak Alsatian (even in the city) - as I do speaking to them after learning it (by hearing and "doing") which I found quite easy because: it is German! Which means I really had to learn it because I come from 400 km downstream from Strasbourg. If I was German from just across the river I would not have needed to learn it - I would have spoken "Alsatian" (or something very similar) as own regional dialect!!! The local dialects of Baden are nearly exactly the same... In fact I think you did not even read me - you do not answer to any of the examples of appearance of the regional language in its non-dialect form I gave! La prochaine fois essayez de discuter un peu "to the point"!!--87.178.141.109 22:28, 21 March 2007 (UTC)Stephele

Désolé, mais vous êtes un peu à côté de la plaque mon cher. To give you an example: try talking to someone in Alsatian in the tram in Strasbourg. Some people might be able to answer you, but everyone will look at you with wide eyes. A few old people still speak Alsatian, but it is (unfortunately, in my opinion) disappearing. The bilinguality programs have not really succeeded in reviving it. I agree that German is a HISTORICAL language of Alsace and that ALsace is culturally Germanic. Even a "supranationalist pro-French Alsatian" like me recognizes that. But today, whether we like it or not, Germanic culture is fading. And young Alsatians don't really care to revive it. FYI the names of streets in historical Strassburg are given in Alsatian (not German) as well as French. So while there's no denying that Alsace is Germanic in some respects, I think emphasizing bilinguality is pointless because local people (at least young people) don't really care and feel fully French (and for the most part speak fairly mediocre German and no Alsatian). Also, I'm not a "surnationaliste" or anti-German or anything of the sort. I fully understand that Alsace has a strong Germanic heritage and I believe that discussions on what Alsace "really" is are absurd. Alsace will be both French and Germanic at least for several more decades. But today, the trend is definitely towards being French and keeping Germany as a part of the region's history and an influence on its culture, which is why I feel emphasizing the German side of ALsace makes little sense.

PS: don't say that Alsatian is German. While I partly agree with you, I know that it would be insulting to some people who pride themselves on their regional identity;

AxelW 02:06, 22 March 2007 (UTC)AxelW

[edit] Irish Monks in Strasbourg's history

The bird and myself were in Strasbourg for Christmas, and it definitely is the best kept secret of European cities. A very romantic place indeed, additionally blessed by ignorance of the place's beauty among English speakers (unlike Heidelberg which was swarming with the latter). However, on the boat trip there were two parts of the city's history which escaped me (due to an elderly man next to me unpluging my headphone by mistake). The first and most interesting for me is the story about the Irish monks. Where can I find out more about the Irish monks and school which were based in the city along the Lille? The second is the story about 20 or so people who perished because some fat guy got stuck in a window during an escape and nobody could get passed him. That building is a large one next to where the above monks lived. Does anybody know more about any of these two? Thanks a million. 89.100.195.42 14:01, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Strange article

I have recently read that

• many Germans were expelled from the city after WWI
• Kehl was part of the city during and shortly after WWII. A number of Germans were expelled from St. and Kehl after WWII, the ones of Kehl returned later.

Is my source unreliable or authors of this article rewrite history? Xx236 15:42, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

* This is - in short - correct. And it´s not only true for Strasbourg but for the whole region - Elsass/Alsace and "Lothringen"/Moselle. Of course one has to be careful about the label "Germans". In 1919 about all inhabitants of the region were German citizens. After nearly 50 years as a part of the German Empire most of them were born Germans. The French authorities expelled mostly those, who had only ancestors from other parts of Germany or had immigrated themselves after 1870. Many were allowed back to Alsace later, if they wanted. In fact the whole population was classified in a "A-B-C-D"-system according to their ancestry. Quite frightening! But I don´t know more details.

* Kehl was occupied by the french military after WWII and, as far as I know, depopulated. But I would have to look this up as well. In Strasbourg there were not many (then)Germans left at that time I think...--134.176.66.210 Stephele 18:36, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

So such informations should be included into Strasbourg, Kehl, Elsass and Lothringen. Xx236 11:18, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling

The Manual of Style says, "Articles that focus on a topic specific to a particular English-speaking country should generally conform to the usage and spelling of that country." Although France is not an English-speaking country, I have observed in other articles the usage of British spelling for articles concerning Europe. For non-clear-cut cases, the MOS also says, "If an article has been in a given dialect for a long time, and there is no clear reason to change it, leave it alone". A glance through several versions of the article indicates that British spelling has been used for the most part. Olessi 21:41, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Who cares? We're all aware of the differences.201.21.96.49 15:14, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edits by R9tgokunks

I am a little bit concerned by the state of the history [3] ; perhaps it would be better if User:R9tgokunks could state his concerns regarding the article so that differences could be discussed on the talk page rather than in edit comments. Also, it would be nice if User:RCS could use a softer tone. Thank you to everybody in advance. Rama 08:52, 27 March 2007 (UTC)