Talk:Szczecin Lagoon

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was PAGE MOVED to Szczecin Lagoon per discussion below. There doesn't seem to be consensus over whether to use the German or the Polish name, but it's clear that "Szczecin Lagoon" is more commonly used than "Lagoon of Szczecin", as far as Polish names go. I am closing this discussion without prejudice against continuing to discuss the appropriateness of German vs Polish names, but the move I've just done seems to be a step forward at best, sideways at worst. -GTBacchus^(talk) 18:51, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

Lagoon of Szczecin → Oder Lagoon – Proposed because the current name is less recognisable to English speakers and is unpronounceable to English speakers without a working knowledge of Polish.

[edit] Survey

Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

• Oppose. "Szczecin Lagoon" is used more frequently in English (see discussion). Olessi 18:43, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose for the same reason as Olessi. I would support renaming to "Szczecin Lagoon", though. Also in Googlebattle, "Szczecin Lagoon" wins against "Oder Lagoon" over 10-folds (11,000 vs 1,020) --Lysy^talk 19:07, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
• Opose. Support moving to "Szczecin Lagoon". Encyclopaedia Editing Dude 20:58, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
• Conditional support. After having a look at the Europa.eu (European Union) website in English, there are 2 results as Szczecin lagoon, 5 as Oder lagoon, none as Szczecinski Lagoon, none as Stettiner Haff and none either as Stettin lagoon (all names including results for style Lagoon of xxxxx too)--Asterion^talk 17:23, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
• Support as by nom. -- Matthead ^discuß!     O       20:11, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments

The rationale for the renaming is that no name for this feature has significant recognition in English. A Google search shows up similar figures for both terms. The current name, however, is both unrecognisable and unpronounceable for English speakers without a knowledge of Polish (ie 99.9%). (It is also misleading- the city of Szczecin is 20 miles from the lagoon). Oder Lagoon, on the other hand, is very easy to pronounce in English, and has as much historical validity and current use. It is not a cut-and-dried case, but I think this gives it the edge.--Stonemad GB 16:53, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm rather against the rename. Szczecin is similarly difficult to pronounce for English speakers without a knowledge of Polish (ie 99.9%) and has less historical validity (whatever it means). Would you propose to rename Szczecin article as well ? --Lysy^talk 17:39, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

There are different factors to be taken into consideration for the city. Firstly, it has 420,000 inhabitants who use the name Szczecin, and would presumably be rather unhappy about use of the German name, for obvious reasons. Secondly, English use of the name Stettin is seen as revanchist. Thirdly, use of the name Szczecin is a recognition of the different post-1945 nationality of the city. None of these factors apply to the lagoon, as a trans-national lake.

(By historical validity I simply meant that reference to this body of water as the Oder lagoon in different languages is long-standing; it is not a neologism).--Stonemad GB 18:57, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining this. I still think that the "pronunciation argument" is rather on a thin side for a rename justification. --Lysy^talk 19:09, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, "Szczecin Lagoon" seems to be the most common name of the lagoon in question, at least according to Google Books.

• Lagoon of Szczecin (1)
• Lagoon of Stettin (1)
• Oder Lagoon (7)
• Szczecin Lagoon (84)
• Stettin Lagoon (5)
• Oderhaff + lagoon (4) (to track usage in English instead of German)

Sorry, Olessi, according to Google Books, the winner is Stettiner Haff (223) (plus 9 for Stettin Haff)!-- Matthead ^discuß!     O       21:21, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Are you sure that "Haff" is an English word ? --Lysy^talk 21:59, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

The difference is also evident with Google Scholar:

• Lagoon of Szczecin (0)
• Lagoon of Stettin (1)
• Oder Lagoon (56)
• Szczecin Lagoon (300)
• Stettin lagoon (7)
• Oderhaff + lagoon (46)

Seems to me it should be moved from Lagoon of Szczecin to Szczecin Lagoon. Olessi 18:37, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, Google Scholar also lists the following results:

• Stettiner Haff (87)
• "Odra Lagoon" (40)
• "Odra Estuary" (144)
• "Oder Estuary" (138)
• "Oder Delta" (105)
• "Odra Delta" (1, for "Oder/Odra Delta")

Apparently scholars do in total use combinations of the river name(s) with estuary, delta or lagoon (and I've skipped bay) more often than ones including the city names - shame on anyone who now tries to find additional results for a "Szczecin Delta" to even the score! Also, I am convinced that (too) many Germans are desperately trying to lick anyone's boots by happily using foreign names even if inappropriate, while I can not imagine a Pole using a German name voluntarily. Even when publishing from a German institute, persons with Polish-sounding names use Polish place names, see 3rd, 5th, 6th result for evidence. Can anyone imagine a German at a Polish University getting away with the use of a German name in a published paper? -- Matthead ^discuß!     O       21:21, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

No. The delta and the estuary are different things that you're confusing here with the lagoon. --Lysy^talk 21:58, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Half of this lagoon is still in Germany, why should it be called by the post-1945 name of a city that is far away (not even shown on the map provided in the article) rather than by the neutral and traditional name of the river which created the lagoon ages ago? BTW, the article, and its current name, was created by a very unbiased user who had chosen to call himself User:Gdansk. How about moving the Vistula lagoon to Gdańsk lagoon, and Curonian lagoon to Królewiec lagoon to further push Polish POV on European geography? -- Matthead ^discuß!     O       20:11, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Because "Szczecin Lagoon" is how the lagoon is most commonly called in English. --Lysy^talk 22:03, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.