Talk:Vietnamese Constitutional Monarchist League

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This article has problems:

1. It is not particularly compliant with Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, and in fact appears to be written specifically from the point of view of the group itself, or a member thereof ("We want to see..." etc.). Examples: "Communist tyranny"; "Only by returning to the roots of Vietnamese independence can the country ever be truly free".
2. It is badly in need of copyediting. Grammatical errors abound, and in some cases I can't even tell whether statements are POV or just inaccurate because they are so unclear (e.g. "...and the people chose to form a Constitutional Monarchy Government in 1993"; which people?).

I don't have the time or the historical background to rewrite the whole thing, so I'm listing it on Wikipedia:Cleanup and Wikipedia:NPOV dispute. —Hob←Talk 00:21, 2004 Aug 17 (UTC)

Well, the first step is easier than I thought, since the bulk of the article is an unacknowledged cut-and-paste from the linked web site. That's got to go. I'll briefly summarize the salient points and leave it as a stub which may deserve future expansion. The following is the text I'm deleting which is verbatim from the web site. Note, User:Celindgren is the webmaster of this site. —Hob←Talk 02:09, 2004 Aug 17 (UTC)

The Vietnamese Constitutional Monarchist League is a group of patriotic people who wish to see the end of the Communist tyranny in Viet-Nam, a return of human rights and basic dignity to the people, and the restoration of its last legitimate government, the Nguyen Dynasty, in a democratic constitutional monarchy which will provide liberty, representative government while still preserving the unique culture and heritage of Viet-Nam with its ancient imperial traditions. Only by returning to the roots of Vietnamese independence can the country ever be truly free.

The Vietnamese Constitutional Monarchist League also works with other patriotic groups supporting similar goals, including the Southeast Asia Imperial & Royal League, and the British Committee for Free Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia & Burma. Any government which does not have the best interests of the people at heart is not legitimate, regardless of the circumstances of its own foundation. We want to see the people of Vietnam, free of fear and false indoctrination, make the choice of how their nation is to be governed.

Likewise, beyond Vietnam, we must make it a priority to share the benefits of liberty and democracy with the other oppressed nations of Indo-China from Laos to Burma. Only when people are free can they truly be prosperous. With stable and democratic regimes in the nations of Southeast Asia, based on national tradition and concern for the people, there is no limit to the amount of success and prosperity these nations could gain in the future.

To accomplish this, the people of the Free World have an obligation to help those who cannot help themselves, who are suffering under the boot of communist tyranny. Working together, we must strive to wipe out oppression wherever it exists and end the brutal exploitation of the people of Southeast Asia. To this end the Vietnamese Constitutional Monarchist League is pledged to and encourages all caring individuals, organizations and world leaders to unite behind this noble effort.

"When we are not devoted to serve the People, we cannot have the right to ask for the favors from the nation."

H.I.H. Prince Regent Nguyen Phuc Buu Chanh, The Nguyen Dynasty of Vietnam

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Tran Van Ba: I've reverted your edits ([1], [2]) because you cut a large amount of text with no explanation, and then added some extremely POV text. Please, in future, use edit summaries or the Talk page to explain what you are doing, especially if you have factual disputes. ←Hob 03:08, 2004 Sep 8 (UTC)

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Once again, I don't think User:Tran Van Ba's changes to the introductory paragraph are consistent with Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, and they are also very difficult to read:

... a U.S.-based organization dedicated to promote to awakened and liberated Communist Vietnamese to cooperate with them in common brotherhood to rebuild and embellish their country of Vietnam ...

Tran Van Ba is apparently an officer of the group in question (note that in the original addition of this text, it said "cooperate with us"). This user has never provided explanations in any edit summaries. ←Hob 18:41, 2004 Sep 9 (UTC)

[edit] more non-NPOV edits

I guess I should be encouraged that User:Tran Van Ba is now adding edit summaries, but still I think I'm justified in removing the large block of text he copied verbatim from the VCML website. Quoting a small part of this mission statement might be useful, as a way of showing what the group says about themselves, but presenting it as Wikipedia's opinion is ludicrous. I have left a note on this user's talk page. ←Hob 00:48, 2004 Sep 12 (UTC)

Right now I'm more worried about the copyright implications. He's copying stuff from various web sites, some of which he may have permission to, and some I doubt. He's also uploading a lot of pictures with a very vague and confusing statement about them belonging to the Prince Regent. -- Cyrius|✎ 01:36, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I noticed that. Well, in this case at least, the two problems have the same solution: don't copy this extremely POV and non-encyclopedic material. ←Hob 02:12, 2004 Sep 12 (UTC)

It states that in the directions be specific who the pictures belong to, I state that the pictures belong to the Prince and that they can be used for History of Nguyen dynasty there are not to be misused the website that that I use as reference I have discussed them in the Discussion to show it was allowed to be used. Tran Van Ba

Those terms are unacceptable and the images need to be removed. -- Cyrius|✎ 03:33, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Reference more non-NPOV edits

Please the statement above is incorrect, The website cover statement http://users.panola.com/vietnam/ is not verbatim and I did not copy it from there.

please see what I wrote and it was just stating the beliefs on this organization:

The Vietnamese Constitutional Monarchist League is a U.S.-based organization dedicated to promoting the replacement of the current communist government of Vietnam with a constitutional monarchy led by the Nguyen Dynasty. The League's position is that Bao Dai was the last legitimate ruler of Vietnam.

The organization was founded in 1994 by its President Prince Nguyen Phuc Buu Chanh, who was exiled from Vietnam after 1975. Members of the League consist of former officials of the South Vietnamese government, Religious, and Vietnamese Exiles from the United States, Canada, Australia and Europe.

The Vietnamese Constitutional Monarchist League seeks to work with all other groups with the basic goal of seeing democracy and personal freedom returned to the people of Vietnam. They also work with other nations who are also suffering under communist tyranny in such as the Southeast Asia. The League is in full partnership with the Southeast Asia Imperial & Royal League and The British Committee For Free Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia & Burma. Their is to work with the traditions of Vietnamese culture to achieve a democratic, tolerant and free government in true representation for the people of Vietnam and to support such efforts in other countries across Southeast Asia.

The Vietnamese Constitutional Monarchist League believes it is a simple fact that the people of Vietnam have never been given the choice of how they are to be governed. Ho Chi Minh took power by military force in 1945 and the people of the north were indoctrinated to believe that Communism was the only solution to the problems Vietnam faced. The south of the country never accepted Ho Chi Minh, nor did they accept the loss of the monarchy. Ho Chi Minh first abolished the monarchy in 1945 without giving the nation an opportunity to vote on the issue. Emperor Bao Dai was brought out of exile as the last legitimate ruler of Vietnam (since Ho took power by force) and Vietnam was supposed to choose in nation-wide elections how their country was to be administered. This never happened. Ngo Dinh Diem held a referendum which was openly rigged in his favor to abolish the monarchy and neither Ngo Dinh Diem or Ho Chi Minh were willing to trust the will of the people throughout all of Vietnam to choose the government best for them.

The Vietnamese Constitutional Monarchist League believes there was also certainly no consideration given to popular opinion when the Communist forces invaded and conquered the Republic of Vietnam after the evacuation of all U.S. armed forces. The Republic of Vietnam itself existed only because the United States wanted the "new" Vietnam to be built in their image rather than traditional Vietnam, which had always been a monarchy. The north was likewise built on foreign models, becoming more like Soviet Russia or Red China than ancient Vietnam. Ho Chi Minh was known to idolize the Russian communist leader Vladimir Lenin. In Communist government offices pictures of Vladimir Lenin and Karl Marx decorate the walls rather than traditional Vietnamese heroes such as Le Loi, Gia Long or Minh Mang.

The Vietnamese Constitutional Monarchist League believes that if the Vietnamese people are given the choice they would rather have a government built on the preservation of Vietnamese culture and traditions, that can truly reflect their national identity.

The Vietnamese Constitutional Monarchist League agenda is to work as hard as it can to unite those who wish to restore the nation to freedom and give the people the choice of deciding how they are to be governed, confident that those who have done the most to help them and fight for what Vietnam truly stands for will not be forgotten in the end.

The Vietnamese Constitutional Monarchist League states that their country of Vietnam has learned anything from the years of conflict it is that the words of His Majesty the Emperor Bao Dai hold true, unity means life and division means death.

In Conclusion the Vietnamese Constitutional Monarchist League wants to see a government in Vietnam that represents all groups who favor freedom and democracy must join together, putting aside differences, and work for the common good of the people and nation of Vietnam. It is to this end, as well as the restoration of cultural pride and the dignity of the Nguyen Dynasty that the Vietnamese Constitutional Monarchist League is dedicated.

In 2004, The Nguyen Dynasty Overseas Council assigned Prince Nguyen Phuc Buu Chanh Regent of The Imperial Nguyen Dynasty of Vietnam.

I wrote me statement and corrected it as you can see there is not the copied as stated by other member http://users.panola.com/vietnam/ Tran Van Ba

It makes no sense to say "the above statement [that the text was a verbatim copy] is incorrect". It obviously is a verbatim copy. It was not taken from the website's cover page, but I never said it was. It was taken from the mission statement page (http://users.panola.com/vietnam/14.html), as I am sure you are well aware.

Now, your most recent edits (after I made my comments) have modified the text slightly to add "The Vietnamese Constitutional Monarchist League believes" before each paragraph, which is a slight improvement. But the article still devotes so much space to repeating all the claims of the VCML, while adding almost no specific relevant facts beyond what is already in the introductory paragraph, that you cannot call it a neutral point of view. The purpose of the article should be to explain what the VCML is, not to repeat all of its opinions. Here are examples of highly non-neutral phrases:

1. "other nations who are also suffering under communist tyranny" ("tyranny" is a non-neutral, pejorative term)
2. "the people of the north were indoctrinated to believe that Communism was the only solution to the problems Vietnam face" (what is your evidence that they were "indoctrinated"?)
3. "In Communist government offices pictures of Vladimir Lenin and Karl Marx decorate the walls rather than traditional Vietnamese heroes such as Le Loi, Gia Long or Minh Mang" (why is this relevant to the article?)
4. "The Vietnamese Constitutional Monarchist League agenda is to work as hard as it can to unite those who wish to restore the nation to freedom" (since this provides no details on how the League intends to do these things, it is nothing more than a vague propaganda statement)

Have you actually read the guidelines in Wikipedia:Neutral point of view? ←Hob 04:01, 2004 Sep 13 (UTC)

[edit] just let me know I will fix it

Hob, ok I will fix those words of neutral "tryanny" or any other non-neutral words.

Also I will will condense the paragraph so not to be repetative in the mission of what this organization goals are. If you see something just assist me, so that other people will know about Asian issues. thank you Tran Van Ba

Feel free to try to improve the article, but you have to understand that other people can also edit it; it's not "your" article. Other editors may choose to make drastic changes, for neutrality or other reasons. You should not just continue putting in the same text and removing other points of view without discussion, as you have done in the past. It really shouldn't have required a complaint page against you to get your attention. And as you know, the non-neutral text is not the only complaint against you at this point. ←Hob 18:09, 2004 Sep 13 (UTC)

This group is a total farce, the leader claims to be a "prince" though this was a title only the Vietnamese emperor could give and he would have been only 13 when the monarchy was abolished (I doubt the Emperor would have given a 13-year-old a princely title when his own prime minister was almost 50 before being so honored). Apparently, after having lunch with the former Emperor in Paris, taking a few pictures and showing them around to various politicians he decided to name himself "boss" of the Nguyen Dynasty. The actual head of the family is the Emperor's eldest son, Crown Prince Bao Long, who has disavowed any connection to this group and firmly refused to deal with them at all.

Most of their material is stolen from other websites, their various arms, flags & symbols are all computer generated copies of various older insignia and the membership of the group seems to consist of only about 200 people world-wide, most simply out to play "let's pretend I'm royalty" and exchange grand sounding titles. They have also carpet-bombed every forum or message board relating to Vietnam or the Vietnamese community with advertisements for their group and used their own website to slander a number of scholars who questioned them as to the validity of their claims.

Obviously, their posting here is simply the lastest childish effort by these pretenders to try and gain some legitimacy for their organization which the actual Vietnamese Imperial Family has dismissed as absurd. -Nguyen Van Tuan

Nguyen Van Tuan, these factual disputes and other matters are currently under review at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Jimmyvanthach. If you have evidence to contribute to that discussion (with links, or references to printed material, to back it up), please do so at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Jimmyvanthach/Evidence. Also, it would be very helpful if you would register a Wikipedia login and password, so that your edits and comments will be seen to come from a single individual - this will also give you a user talk page (like mine), so other users can talk to you without going to a lot of different article talk pages like this one. ←Hob 22:03, 2004 Oct 1 (UTC)

"This group is a total farce[...] he would have been only 13 when the monarchy was abolished (I doubt the Emperor would have given a 13-year-old a princely title when his own prime minister was almost 50 before being so honored)."

Age doesn't matter for monarchy, an attack on the age of a monarch makes me laugh... Consider Isabella II of Spain[1], she acquired the title of queen when she was 3 years old and assumed power when she was 13 years old (born in 1830 assumed power in 1843 after the military reinstalled her). [1]http://womenshistory.about.com/library/bio/blbio_isabella_ii.htm 2112Z 2004 Dec 14

Age does matter in this case, if you knew Asian monarchies are not the same as Europe. Buu Chanh is not a prince -he was not born a prince, if he was age would not matter, but he was not, but claims to be now, so it does. For him to be a prince the Emperor would have had to make him one and considering that he did not even make Prince Buu Hoi a prince until he became Prime Minister, do you really think he would have made some child who had accomplished nothing yet in life a prince before his own prime minister? NguyenHue 21:27, 5 August 2005 (UTC)NguyenHue