Talk:White tie

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Yes, thanks for the edit on Evening dress - Used in many different settings in Sweden, specifically academic and weddings

I had understood the use of white tie for grooms at weddings, etc, with lits of photos seen but no definitive sorce. Also seen reference to the belief that white tie actually first developed in Sweden/Scandinavia in use at weddings, but again no definitive sorce.Glenlarson 18:48, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 Consolidation of Wikipedia formal wear terminology 2 Requested move 2.1 Discussion 2.2 Result 3 Formality status in Sweden 4 Evening dress=Morning dress??

[edit] Consolidation of Wikipedia formal wear terminology

ironically due to the cultural marxism of the 60s dumbing everything down & destroying established precedent we now have a more restrictive, elitizing, of the white tie - when in fact not a one has referred to any time tested ettiquette series or authorities - in short a white tie can be worn anytime the event is deemed formal (meaning at a minimum black tie must be worn to be formal which can always be upgraded to white tie) as opposed to business wear (suits) or casual - also women do not have to wear a ball gown w/ a white tie, another post 60s revsionism probably done by another characterless empty ego making a name for oneself - refer to emily post - also the diplomatic, royal court world is not the origin of ettiquette that dear friends resides w/ time tested honorable upper class culture - in other words whatever the established aristocracy is out of which by the way the sovereign comes from - stop defering to idiotic formal events that have a purpose ie political/work related when in fact true formal events need not serve a work related purpose - to link the two is utterly lumpen hoi poloi illiterati petite bourgoise A significant drawback of a “public” or “open” encyclopedia like Wikipedia is that there is no editor to ensure consistency among related articles. The articles regarding formal wear are a case in point with different authors using different terms to mean the same thing and vice versa. I propose that all formal wear terminology be consolidated in a single location and that related articles use this terminology consistently. The most logical place to establish this terminology would be the page describing dress codes (Social aspects of clothing) but it has (rightly) been tagged for a number of deficiencies. Therefore the next obvious choice seems to the Formal wear page.

I have taken the liberty of beginning to establish universal terminology on the aforementioned page. I have subsequently made corresponding changes in this page, including placing a request to rename the page. Details for this change of terminology can be found on the Formal wear page. Should anyone have any objections to the new terminology – or to the selection of the Formal wear page as the location for establishing this technology – please make your edits on the Formal wear page before making them here so that the consolidation will be enhanced rather than sidetracked. Peter Marshall 02:31, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

• I agree with your general idea and would suggest that women's formalwear be included in the general project. I did something similar for evening gown and added women's styles to the formal wear page. The women's pages still need cleanup. I can't add to the "suppport" or "oppose" below. Since there seems to be some hot debate below, could someone perhaps do some genuine research and add some references to make their cases (something besides "I 'Googled' it)? Quill 20:34, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

This article is about "white tie" which is not the same thing as "evening dress" ----

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~

[edit] Discussion

This request is a result of an attempt to consolidate formal wear terminology throughout Wikipedia. Please see the discussion page for Formal wear for my entry entitled "Consolidation of Wikipedia formal wear terms" for more information. Peter Marshall 02:47, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

• Oppose In Evening dress is used to refer to white tie in British English, Hiberno-English, etc. FearÉIREANN 19:17, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

• Oppose I think there's room to add consistency among these articles, but the problem IMHO is that the originals were written from a UK POV and have been subsequently edited by a number of US writers (myself included). I think there is possibly room for an "evening dress" article on the UK practice referring to a "white tie" article on US practice. PKM 03:02, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

• Support The terms White Tie and Evening dress do not equate to the same thing at all, and should not be considered so as the term Evening Dress is not used to exclusively refer to white tie in British English or any other form of English. --Bob 22:33, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Completely incorrect. Evening Dress always means White Tie, never Black Tie. That is simply called Black Tie. I have never ever received an invitation that used Evening Dress meaning Black Tie, nor have I have come across it. (I checked with a government protocol office which issues tens of thousands of invitations and they said, categorically "absolutely not. Evening dress is White Tie and tails.") On the (rare) occasions where I have been invited to an "Evening Dress" event, it always meant White Tie. Again, a dress hire shop when asked said that Evening Dress always means White Tie. Similarly in Britain, Palace invitations that stipulate "Evening Dress" means White Tie, never Black Tie. Ambassadors, for example, when presenting Letters of Credence always wear "evening dress" meaning White Tie. Black Tie is never used for such ceremonials. FearÉIREANN 22:54, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
    • You, dear sir, are completely incorrect. I have attended a few events in my time and recieved invitations from many people, including palace and ambassador invitations, and they do not always imply white tie. One has to be discerning as to what one will wear to an event. Indeed, evening wear means black tie for all but the most formal of occasions, therefore, this page is either improperly labeled or is badly written as it does not explain black tie attire. Also, as an afterthought, the page describes Formal evening dress not just evening dress. Therefore the page itself does not explain the title. --Bob 23:10, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Somebody wanted references, so here is one: Lucire, the glbal fashion magazine. Full evening dress is White tie, evening dress may mean black tie. --Bob 21:24, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

• Support I started this article, and yes, I did it from a UK perspective. "Evening dress" in the UK has always meant white tie and tails. An invitation would never read "evening dress" unless it was expected at the very least that those who possessed such dress would wear it. However, I appreciate that times change, and to non-UK readers evening dress may imply black tie. Guidance from the Secretary of the Central Chancery of Orders of Knighthood reproduced on the Debretts website reads: At all times when “Evening Dress—Decorations” is prescribed, those not in possession of Full Evening Dress may wear a Dinner Jacket with Decorations. Therefore, while white tie is still clearly expected, black tie may in some circumstances now be excusable. Andrew Yong 11:35, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

• Update Thanks everyone for your input! As I suspected, it comes down to a question of English - do we use American or British terminology? Can I suggest the following compromise? 1) This page is renamed "White Tie", 2) a new "Evening Dress" page is created to explain the levels of evening dress and the connection to white tie & black tie, and 3) the new Evening Dress page links to the "white tie" and black tie articles where readers can go for further information. Does that seem logical? Andrew, if there is consensus would you want to do the honours of writing the new Evening Dress article? I will update the Formal Wear reference to evening dress based on the clarification provide in this discussion. Peter Marshall 22:26, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

• Not quite there; your proposal still suggests that US usage is "correct". Perhaps this will work if "Evening Dress" clearly lays out the difference in terminology and the new "White tie" article states something like "known as Full Evening Dress in the UK" or whatever the correct term is. Also, we're going to cause confusion with "Formal Wear" and "Evening Dress" unless we decide which article is the main one describing all the variations considered formal wear. The other articles should state, This article describes X, for an overview of formal wear see XY Quill

[edit] Result

User:Ugen64 moved the page. WhiteNight ^{T | @ | C} 17:42, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Formality status in Sweden

Just an addition to the above, I don't know if this should be in the article or not. In Sweden, where white-tie is relatively common, as the article notes, it is considered the most formal dress. However, it isn't the only such dress. Traditional attire (Folkdräkt) is considered on-par with white-tie, and is accepted as a substitute on most occasions requiring white-tie. The same goes for full military dress uniform. --BluePlatypus 20:15, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Evening dress=Morning dress??

When, exactly, is "evening dress" used as a synonym for "morning dress"? That seems like a bizarre claim to make. My understanding was that "evening dress" is used for either black tie or white tie. john k 14:41, 15 December 2006 (UTC)