Talk:Pharamond

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Faramundus is the normal spelling. Google it for information-- all the Latin histories of the Franks begin with "Faramundus"-- and put it under Salian Franks, the entry that needs to be made before this one, I'd think. User:Wetman

Faramundus (Pharamond) is not attested by Prosper Tiro (Prosper of Aquitaine) in his Chronicle, except in an "amended" version on which Sir Isaac Newton based his conclusions in his book on the prophecies of Daniel, etc. This flawed version of Prosper is not accepted as legitimate by scholars. Thus, no contemporary sources mention Faramundus, and the earliest mention of him is distinctly later in Carolingian times. Faramundus probably did not exist. Almirena 07:05, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry to say none of the above info is correct. The name Faramond is spelled in several ways in the sources (and Google, nor internet is a source). Furthermore there is a Faramond mentioned by Gregorius of Tours (as bishop)- who certainly was not a Carolingian. Faramond is named by a Carolingian source called Liber Historiae Francorum who states that he is the son of Marcomer/Marchomir. Marchomir is a well attested historical person. So why would his son probably not exist? Having said this, the whole article looks like teenage fiction. And why the **** is this a "WikiProject France"? Faramond was a Frank, not a Frenchman. And Franks are a proto-Dutch speaking tribe. Shame on Wikipedia! Johanthon, 01-02-2007. 19.30hrs P.S. I'm thinking of a RADICAL clean up for this article, but I don't want to end up in an edit war. So who is the responsibel editor for this page? Johanthon.

Huh? I've removed some legendary stuff from the page years ago and it has been on my watchlist since. Now the current short text seems factual and sensible, but I can't vow for its accuracy. Whoever is going to redo this page, PLEASE go to the original sources (beware of Carolingian or later interpolations!), and quote them. Even then iff much of this person is dynastic fiction from later time, it is worth mentioning since it tells something about how the French regarded these early Franks, and Wikipedia readers may stumble upon this name and come look for info here. And BTW even though these pre-Merovingians may have come from a territory currently within the Netherlands, and spoke a West-Germanic language, traditionally the Dutch have not regarded them much as founders of their current country, while the French do for theirs. So I think it is OK to assign this article to France rather than the Netherlands or Belgium; I find the Andorran and Monagask flags here more puzzling. A WikiProject may incorporate any article they find relevant anyhow. Tom Peters 16:41, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Tom, I don't want to heart your feelings but the text is full of legendary stuff and there are no sources mentioned, just look at the text. Birthdate? Date of Death? Sun in law of Marcomer? 420? Prosper Tiro? Seperation ripuarians? Argotta? Son Chlodio? That's exactly why I am thinking of putting in some sources. For I feel it is time to seperate the account of historical sources and the scholars who promote pseudohistory. I am certainly not thinking of interpolating from Carolingian sources, on the contrary, I want to seperate fact from fiction. But I do think that for example the story of the Liber Historiae Francorum could be mentioned as a legendaric believe that lead to later "literary fascination".

BTW; As a Dutch I can say I think Franks are part of my ancestors. That's very unimportant to me and to most Dutch, but it remains ridiculous that Wikipedia claims that Pharamond is a "French peer or noble". Why should Wikipedia want to make this political? That is not a good idea. johanthon 13:43, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Well OK, but mind that these people are semi-legendary anyway (although likely based on historical persons), and no or very few contemporary sources on these people have been preserved, yet they have been playing a role as part of our history, in the sense of a story told about our past. It is good to separate verifiable fact from stories, but the way these people have been regarded in later times is at least as interesting as what is left of their "true" story, and should not be omitted. Another example: Jesus... Tom Peters 15:36, 5 February 2007 (UTC)