Talk:Pharaoh Hound

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[edit] Need new image!

A new image is needed for this page. The current one does not show the breed in its best light. A better photo would show the dog stacked (in a show stance), have better lighting, and show a dog that doesn't have its tail tucked in (the article clearly states that isn't good breed type), or its ears flattened back (also bad type). If anyone has a good image that can be used please put it up. I can't find a source for a suitible (GNU liscensed) image, and don't know anyone who owns the breed. Pharaoh Hound 22:37, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

That photo was taken by me, in Maltese countryside where pharaoh hounds are not bred for show standards 195.158.122.165 17:36, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

The current image is contradictory to the article in many respects, and images that contradict their artcles are not acceptable. Pharaoh Hound 22:37, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
How does it contradict? It is an example of the dog as it is breed in it's country of origin for us in it's intended purpose of hunting rabbits. This should trump a breed standard, which in this casee was an arbitrary guide created by people with little knowledge of the breed—if I recall Block and company wrote the original standard based on three dogs they aquired in a fairly short period and without much at all about how the breed is breed in Malta. If Block had taken the time to learn from the Maltese, the standard would not be as it is today. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.229.136.185 (talkcontribs).
Perhaps "contradict" wasn't the exact word I was looking for, so let me elaborate. What I meant was that the "appearance" section of this page gives the discription of "western" or show type dogs, which is the best known form of the Pharaoh, thus I belive it would be best to have an image in the infobox that reflects the breed's most common form. Though you make an interesting point about the differances between the two types and the history. I think that it would be very useful to have photos and discriptions of both types. --Pharaoh Hound (talk) 22:42, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

It's OK if that's not a show quality dog, however we need a photo of the dog in a nicer pose (the current one looks like it's cowering). Pharaoh Hound 14:41, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Good I'll try to find one and get a good photo of it when I'm in the countryside 195.158.120.242 21:11, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks a lot!!! Pharaoh Hound 21:42, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I have exchanged the first photo for a better one, which I have already provided for the Pharaoh Hound article in the German Wikipedia, and added two more photos from my collection. --Jan Eduard 18:31, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sighthound status debate

This breed is not a sighthound. --Richard Hawkins 03:06, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean by this? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.229.136.185 (talkcontribs).

Exactly what I wrote: The breed is not a sighthound; neither by its work which is scent hunting rabbits, nor by its FCI Group 5 status. So why is it included here? Verify its true status. Supply the reader with a description of its true field work, descriptions of which are freely available. Then draw your own conclusion. Do not continue to mythologise the true identity of breeds.--Richard Hawkins 20:12, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Trust me, I am one of the last to try to mythologize this breed. I was just curios about your basis for your statement. As to feild work, I have only read Peter Gatt's descriptions, which seem to be a combination of scent, sight and hearing. One thing to note, have you ever seen what happens when a Greyhound, whippet or Italian Greyhound in a park filled with off leash dogs of a variety of breeds doe when either another Greyhound, whippet, Italian Greyhound or Kelb tal-Fenek moves by withint 20 feet? They drop what they are doing (playing, sitting, etc.) and head straight for that dog for a sniff—they do not do this with all of the other dogs around them. This leads me to beleive there is something about sighthounds that makes them stand out to one another from other dogs, and that Kelb tal-Fenek have this trait. So, if sighthound recognize the Kelb tal-Fenek as sighthound, then I think there is something to it. Mind you, I understand this is anecdotal evidence, but if someone would devise a test we could test it out. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.229.136.185 (talkcontribs).

I respect Mr. Hawkins qualifications. However, as someone who has owned 3 Pharaoh hounds, has watched them lure course, seen them hunt in the field, and compared their gait and hunting style to other sight hounds (borzoi and ibizans among others), I have found no reason to believe that they should not be considered sight hounds. They may start prey with their scent but they definitely run it down. If they lose sight of prey in long grass, they will rear up on their back legs to relocate the prey as well as cast for scent. They run with the double suspension gallop. If you do not consider Pharaoh hounds as sighthounds, then we need to discuss your definition of a sighthound. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.174.89.62 (talk • contribs).

Please see and read the discussion on the Sighthound page, you will find my reasons clearly given there why I do not consider scent hounds such as the Kelb to be sighthounds. Read the Kelb field work description http://www.kelb-tal-fenek.com/fieldwork.htm carefully, and you should understand that the Kelb is not a breed which takes its prey by its superior speed (an essential factor in the description of sighthounds) - NB the rabbit is not speed prey like the hare. The Ibizan/Podenco is not a sighthound either - please consult Miquel Elena Rossello - Ca Eivissenc: La Alternativa/Podenco Ibicenco: La Alternativa 1987, to understand why Spanish breed experts do not consider the Podenco to be a sighthound, in fact they are adamant that it is not. Why question or insult native breed experts? They, unlike the Maltese, do at least know what a true "national sighthound is" because they have the Galgo. Any dog will run its prey down given enough time and endurance. That does not mean it is a sighthound.--Richard Hawkins 00:25, 21 February 2007 (UTC)


When considering whether a hound should be categorized as "scent" or "sight", too often reference books and "experts" make the simplistic distinction that scenthounds pursue their prey with their noses while sighthounds pursue their prey exclusively by sight. Dogs have tremendous powers of scent. Why, therefore, expect any dog in the field not to use their nose? The difference between the sight and scent hound is how they pursue their prey once the scent is hot or the prey has broken cover. Conversations with other sighthound owners-breeders-enthusiasts as well as direct observation of sight and scent hound breeds in the field are the basis for these comments. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Wietiesr (talkcontribs).

Just call it a SightScenter and be done with it§70.165.71.229 01:04, 6 February 2007 (UTC)§

Richard, I think you go too far here. The Maltese do not call the Kelb-tal Fenek a sight hound, the designation comes from other sources (as did this mess about Pharaohs and Egypt). The Maltese also did not create the classification system(s) used for dogs, so do not blame them for the breed being called sighthound. I have read your thoughts on this subject of what is and is not a sighthound and I would like to understand your motivation here, what makes you so passionate about this subject?

Dear Pharaoh Hound, I was once given the Maltese Dictionary definition of a Kelb (I think either from Jan Scotland or Peter Gatt or both), being described as the nation's "greyhound". You are quite right, the Maltese are not in any way to be 'blamed' for any of "this" - see discussion on sighthound status - however the main point is that the Spanish do have a true classic sighthound, the Galgo, and they know the difference between their scent hounds such as the Podenco's, and their sighthound such as the Galgo. Which the Maltese may not know, because they do not have both. The Maltese environment, just as the Mallorcan islands, does not lend itself to the sighthound specific chase. Why am I so passionate about this - read my book :) Okay, I have researched hunting dogs and hunting lore, I was once deeply concerned with the background and history of coursing related to the judging of lure coursing. The truth above all is worth being passionate about. If people do not know the true history of their dog/breed they should not be pretending to inform others. North America is notorious in this respect. See for instance the current AKC Complete Dog Book, page 180 where the "Ibizan hound" is actually called a Galgo ... With reference to the comment above from 'Wietiesr', "sight" has become too misleading for many people trying to interpret the difference between sighthounds and scent hounds. Sighthounds take their prey by their superior speed, nothing more nothing less. The less people actually hunt with their dogs, the less they understand about the nature of their hounds/breeds. And so their status becomes indistinct.--Richard Hawkins 06:04, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Links

Should this page have links to sites that propagate the "Egyptian myth?" The UK Club spins quite a few yarns with no source materail as usual.