Talk:Phrygian language
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There is no mention yet of its centum or satem classification (which from what I remember is still debated). I know that Greek chamai ("on the earth") has a Phrygian cognate beginning with 'z' (zama or something, don't remember), and there is also zamelon (slave; meaning "earth-bound" roughly; if that's the right spelling). Decius 00:56, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
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[edit] Armenians
What are we saying regarding the relation of Phrygian and Armenian? Sadly, not enough of Phrygian is known to be sure, and Armenian made some weird changes, between 600 BC and 400 AD. But Phrygian may be, as it were, the missing link between Greek and Armenian. I am particularly intrigued by the gunai(k)- stem. In Armenian gunay-k, the k is a desinence, while in Greek/Phrygian it is completely irregular. dab (ᛏ) 28 June 2005 07:09 (UTC)
- The article continues to state "Ancient historians and myth did associate it with Thracian and maybe Armenian, on grounds of classical sources.". What assiociation was made by "ancient historians" of connections with Thracian, and, especially, with Armenian? I avoid applying those little tags, but this does need a source. --Wetman 01:07, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Verifying
Okay, I admit I am not aware of any ancient record that records that Phrygians migrated from Thrace around 1200 BC---what record is this? Is this merely from a classical author? I'm aware that some classical sources (namely, Herodotus) indicate such a migration, but I don't know of any non-Greek record that does.Decius 2 July 2005 09:23 (UTC)
- I think it's generally accepted as probable, although no definite proof exists, of course. We could mention that the assuption is that the immigration was connected with the repercussions of the collapse of the Hittite Empire (it's always the same, as soon as an empire collapses, neighboring barbarians immigrate/invade) dab (ᛏ) 2 July 2005 09:32 (UTC)
Yeah, I think the Phrygians did migrate from Thrace ca 1200 BC, but we should leave the question more open in the article, unless conclusive evidence exists. Decius 2 July 2005 09:36 (UTC)
I'm trying to go back to the records themselves that we're dealing with here: at hand, I remember only Herodotus, book 7, part 73, where he tells of the Macedonian account of the Phrygians originating in Thrace. Is that all we have here directly? If so, the text has to be changed (The Phrygians are recorded to have emigrated from Thrace around 1200 BC). Decius 2 July 2005 09:54 (UTC)
The 1200 BC figure stems from an assumption that the migration of the Sea Peoples relates to a presumed invasion of Phrygians from Thrace. To this is added the fall of the Hittite Empire, which may or may not have had anything to do with a Phrygian invasion. Decius 2 July 2005 11:40 (UTC)
Alright, everything looks fixed now. The Phrygians most likely did migrate from Thrace to Asia Minor ca 1200 BC, but there are no records of this Phrygian migration as the article claimed, AFAIK. The records apparently do not mention any Phrygian ethnonym, just various Sea Peoples. Decius 2 July 2005 12:00 (UTC)
[edit] Mysian
no, no 'Mysian' is a purely geographical term here, since that's where these inscriptions were found, they are still Phrygian, just in another dialect, "Mysian Phrygian", if you like. dab (ᛏ) 9 July 2005 13:00 (UTC)
Thanks for the disambig, I didn't know whether scholars were claiming geographically Mysian or ethnically Mysian. Herodotus was probably right then. Decius 9 July 2005 13:05 (UTC)
[edit] Phrygian sentences
Next thing to do would be to add some (transliterated) Phrygian sentences into the article. I'm going to dig through Lubotsky and find something. Decius 19:53, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
I'm going to place some Phrygian sentences here as I decide which to include:
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- Pinke (five) tas (those) dakeres (parts) onomaniais (named) mirou (in the monument) ik (for the) knaiken (wife) edaes (made).---"He has made those five parts named in the monument for the wife."
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- Ios ni semon knoumane kakon daket aini manka.-----"Whoever may afflict harm to this grave or stele." Phrygian kakon (harm) pretty much identical to Ancient Greek kakôn (ill, evil). Aini means 'or, and'. Knoumane means "grave", daket means "does" (PIE *dhe-, 'to set, put'), manka means stele. Etc.
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- Dakaren paterais eukin argou.-----"The parents have erected because of a vow." Dakaren<PIE *dhe, 'to set, put'; paterais<PIE *pater, 'father'; eukin<ancient Greek euxe, 'vow'; argou>because, since.
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Decius 20:14, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
Having read the sentences above, spotted few other similarities with the Armenian (though not is a position to tell if substantial or accidental): Phry: pinke(five) and Arm:hing (five); Phry: knaiken(wife) and Arm: kin (wife/woman) and khanayk (women)--164.114.234.24 22:21, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Sometimes I get the impression that Greek, Phrygian, and Thracian were practically mutually intelligible in Achaean times. The Achaeans may have been quick at picking up a related language (Thracian, Phrygian). Since the Iliad has been shown reliable on a number of points, maybe those Thracians with Greek names in the Iliad really did have those Greek names. To me, the Iliad suggests that the Thracians may have spoke a tongue not too far from Greek. Decius 21:55, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
interesting; where in the Iliad is that? In general, I used to consider the Iliad like a hollywood movie (viz., everybody is speaking American, the bad guys with funny accents); the Trojan population should of course speak Luwian, which is hadly intelligible to Greeks. But the Alaksandus evidence suggests that there was a Greek ruling class in Troy already, so that the expedition was really agains foreign Greeks that were ruling over a Luwian population. This would certainly explain the ease of communication between Trojans and Achaeans. dab (ᛏ) 05:31, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
Yeah, I know the Iliad is fiction (though based on history), and in old movies everyone speaks the same language. And of course, Anatolian languages wouldn't be very intelligible---I was aiming at Phrygian and Thracian. It wouldn't surprise me if a Greek could communicate reasonably well with a Thracian in Achaean times after some practice (and I don't mean a Thracian taking a Greek course). I don't believe that bullshit about Thracian being close to "Balto-Slavic"---that seems too out of place. Decius 05:36, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
- of course not, the dominating influence in that area was Anatolian. I'm just saying that your barbarophonon argument is not very strong as long as you don't explain why the Trojans Lydians, Lycians etc. are not also barbarophonon. dab (ᛏ) 05:59, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
- I think that's because the Carian language was particularly "uncouth" or mixed with "Lelegian". Now, compared to Lydian, Lydian may have seemed less barbaric to an Achaean than Carian did. Though probably not by that much. Anyway, there's no proof regarding the definite affinity of Thracian, but I'm betting on Thraco-Phrygo-Hellenic for now. Decius 06:03, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
- This particular vein of argument was started by those Phrygian sentences, not by that Iliad quote (though that was suggestive also)---I was thinking, if I can get the hang of some of these Phrygian sentences so quick, imagine how much easier it would have been for Thracians, Achaeans, and so on. They didn't have a list of "PIE roots" handy or Lubotsky's database, but I don't think they would've needed that. Decius 07:03, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
[edit] bukë
Albanian bukë 'bread; meal, meal-time' was listed as a cognate for Phrygian bekos 'bread', but the Albanian word is a borrowing from Latin bucca 'cheek'. so, i have removed it. i also added a large number of cognates for the words in the short glossary.
Flibjib8 02:30, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] recent changes by 66.81.157.116
These changes by 66.81.157.116 look destructive and there is no discussion on the talk page that suggests why these changes are happening. John Vandenberg 23:27, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
- They are made by a sockpuppet of an indef blocked user: see User:Ararat_arev.--Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 23:28, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
