Talk:A Series of Unfortunate Events

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A Series of Unfortunate Events is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article Milestones below to see why the nomination failed. For older candidates, please check the archive.

Article Milestones
Date	Process	Result
January 8, 2007	Peer review	Reviewed
March 19, 2007	Peer review	Reviewed
March 31, 2007	Featured article candidate	Not promoted
Current Status: Former featured article candidate

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[edit] Timeline

In an interview with Disney adventures magazine, Snicket said that the books take place in the year of the dog.

The series spans over at least two years, actually. Anyway, there have been many years of the dog in the last hundred years, so it doesn't exactly narrow it down. Mrmoocow 21:36, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

It is almost impossible to tell exactly when the series takes place. The clothes the characters wear and some of the technology (especially in the unauthorized autobiography) are 1920s yet Prufrock Prep has an advanced computer. In the Penultimate Peril, Kit Snicket quotes Martin Luther King Jr. from a speech he made in 1964. The play La Forza del Destino was first performed in 1862. It may have gone on longer or have been re-performed.

One interesting fact is that the year of the dog was 2006 (one of them). That was when the entire series was finished and when Snicket made that interview with Disney Adventures. I'm guessing that the series takes place in modern times.

My view is that the series doesn't take place in any specific time (or in any specific real place), so that Handler could bring in whatever technology he thought was appropriate to the specific plotline or joke.

I agree. I reckon it takes place in an alternate reality to our own. Think about it: it is home to a whole range of places that certainly do not exist in our world and has technology from all over the century. It can't be set in modern times (the styles of architecture, dress and technology are wrong) and it can't be set sooner (technology is too advanced).

That's impossible, because Sunny is still only one in the final book, and only Klaus actually has his birthday during the duration of the series.

Yoda921 00:21, 15 January 2007 (UTC)Yoda

Violet has her birthday in The Grim Grotto.

Also, I would estimate Sunny to be about two, as Beatrice is almost one. ChunkyKong12345 02:48, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Regarding Sunny's age: She was born less than two years before The Reptile Room (the Baudelaires think back in that book to what they were doing two years ago, and Sunny notes that she hadn't been born at the time, although the text could be read as indicating that Mrs. Baudelaire was pregnant with her). Since Sunny never had an obvious birthday in the series (likely so Handler didn't have to state her age, as that'd lead to all sorts of inconsistencies with her level of development), then by the end of Chapter Fourteen she definitely can't be four years old.

[edit] Questions

What happened to the list of thirteens page? I thought I saw it recently. Could the "Other" Section on the template be further divided? The movie and video game seem too much of important and different things to be clumped up with a few things that probably would be better organized in a "V.F.D." section. Also, shouldn't the Queequeq (and possibly the Prospero) be under places?-Pacaman 17:46, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

The List of thirteens recently came up on articles for deletion for the second time, and very few people came to its defense. It vanished shortly afterwards, so I've been removing any links I come across. Personally, I'm neutral as to whether the page should exist or not - I was convinced by the argument on the talk page to the effect that the use of 13 is a deliberate device in the series (I haven't read it), but I found the article itself to be lacking direction. I think it might be a good idea to incorporate examples of the theme somewhere in the main ASUE article, if it can be done well, and if it doesn't come to dominate an already overly inflated piece.

I copied the list, in anticipation its demise, and reproduce it here for editors' information. I should probably advise our less experienced editors that it would be a really bad idea to attempt to recreate the deleted article as was.

List follows. TheMadBaron 19:29, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Thirteen, the number of misfortune, is a commonly reoccurring number in A Series of Unfortunate Events by Lemony Snicket. This is a list of the occurrences of the number 13.

Occurrences

Number of chapters in each book
Number of books in series
Number of owners of Lemony Snicket's map (The Ersatz Elevator, chapter 11)
Number of pages in the Snicket File, and the number of the only one that the Baudelaires were able to obtain
Number of letters in the following names: Lemony Snicket (pen name), Daniel Handler (author), Brett Helquist (artist), HarperCollins (publisher), Alison Donalty (cover design), Meredith Heuer (photographer), Jerome Squalor (character)
Number of letters in the names of several hospital patients in The Hostile Hospital, chapter 9: Lisa N. Lootnday, Linda Rhaldeen, Ed Valiantbrue, Monty Kensicle, Eriq Bluthetts, Ruth Dercroump. Some of these are anagrams of the above names.
Age of Klaus Baudelaire from The Vile Village onwards
Possible age of Quigley, Duncan and Isadora Quagmire (in The Austere Academy, Duncan and Isadora are described as older than Klaus, who was 12, and younger than Violet, who was 14)
Number of letters in the following book titles (not including "The"): The Miserable Mill, The Slippery Slope
Number of letters in the following book titles (including "The"): The Wide Window and The Grim Grotto
Number of chapters in Dr. Orwell's "Advanced Ocular Science"
The chapter "Visitable Fungal Ditches" (note the initials V.F.D.) in Fiona's mycological book is chapter number 39, a multiple of 13.
The map including Curdled Cave (The Wide Window) in the Atlas of Lake Lacrhymose is on page 104, a multiple of 13.
The number of characters in "667 Dark Avenue"
The amount of letters in "Very Fresh Dill" (see: Verbal Fridge Dialogue)
Amount of letters (including "The") in "The Snow Scouts"

The scheduled release date (Friday, October 13th) of the 13th book.

Thanks! I found the same article on A Wiki of Unfortunate Events, I was just wondering what happened here on Wikipedia. Should I just go ahead and change the menu for ASUE, and see if anyone reverts it?-Pacaman 20:52, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

I added a short paragraph on thirteen. "The number regarded as unlucky in many clutures, 13, appears in the series a number of times. The most significant appearences are the thirteen books in the series and the thirteen chapters in each book." -Pacaman 21:00, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Table

Could somebody please fix up that table? It's ugly, and it stretches the page. Removing the pointless fields "Library" and "Snicket's letter at end" would help a lot. TheMadBaron 19:09, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Maybe it should just be moved to a seperate article, so people who want to see all these facts quickly can go there to check. Also, the field "Library" isn't pointless, the different library encountered is usually a major part of each book.Pacaman 20:07, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I did the change I just mentioned and created the page Summary of novels in A Series of Unfortunate Events, but someone readded the table and removed my link. I'd change it back, but I'd rather not be involved in an edit war. Pacaman 20:54, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reverts

I wish people wouldn't revert without explanation. I left a note on this discussion page in reply to the table explaining I was moving it to Summary of novels in A Series of Unfortunate Events. My edit was reverted. I also made a change to the ASUE template by splitting up the other section into more organized parts, as well as leaving a note on the discussion, and it was reverted. Why were they reverted? Pacaman 21:44, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

They seem to be back now... maybe my computer was just acting wierd.Pacaman 21:52, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Themes

The themes section seems kind of limited.

One theme that I've noticed is the gradual loss of clarity between good and evil. I think this could even be the most outstanding theme in the books... as the series progresses, right up to the very end, the Baudelaires increasingly doubt their beliefs about who and what is noble and who and what is wicked. They reflect more and more about the tradgedy they themselves have caused, and upon how there is always a bigger picture of what seemed terrible at first. It seems like there's a lot of almost explicit symbolism that nothing is either black or white, as the Baudelaires lose their innocence all the way up to the conclusion. Did anyone else notice this as a theme? 65.96.209.236 01:59, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I did. I tried to add something about it, but it was deleted. Also, Lemony Snicket seems to have very little patience for charcters who see things in black and white and are unwilling to listen to other's points of veiw. (anon)

The theme of moral relativism is well represented now. I added a reference to Snicket's allusion to the biblical Fall. I found that scene at the end of chapter 12 in "The End" to be chilling. Snicket seems to use the snake and apple to punctuate his theme that survival may be the highest ethic. Ronstew 16:18, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Literary Allusions

This is a suggestion for all the entries in the Series of Unfortunate Events. All the books in the series contain tons of great literary allusions, such as the names of all the patients in the Hostile Hospital or castaways in The End, as well as catches of poetry, etc. However, I believe The End is the only entry that contains a comprehensive section of literaty allusions. Perhaps we should start to construct similar sections in the entries on the 12 other books. I will pitch in, maybe even start a couple sections in entries on the books I remember best, but I'm sure there are a lot that other allusions other people can provide that I forgot or didn't catch in the first place.

Please sign your name with four tildes (~) on talk pages. Thanks. Clamster5 23:43, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Separating Themes and Literary Allusions

Of course many of Handler's themes are expressed in his choice of character and place names. But I think Literary Allusions deserve their own section in this article. That will decrease the amount of interpretation - original research - in the Themes section. Ronstew 15:14, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unanswered Questions

I propose that this section be removed. It is hard to maintain as there are in infinite number of unanswered questions in the series. (What is the bald man's favorite color?, What is Violet's middle name?, Does Lemony Snicket enjoy cashews?, What is Klaus's favorite book?, What are Edgar and Albert Poe's grades in school? etc.) Also, this section is prone to edits by unregistered/new users who put in questions that either are answered fully or partially already or are not of much importance to the series. If no one disagrees, I'll take out the section in a few days. Clamster5 00:01, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I removed the section. Clamster5 12:20, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Maybe the section should be a seperate article or on the page for The End. --Pacaman! 17:46, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] J.D.Salinger/J.S.Salinger

I deleted comments about the use of the initials "J.S. referrring to Salinger, whose initials had immediately previously been (correctly) given as J.S. I forgot to add a comment to the edit. ~~MrDemeanour

[edit] Shouldn't there be...

As there is a "recurring themes" tag on the "related books" articles, which says wheteher or not there is an "ex libris" and other things in the book, shouldn't this be on the normal books pages as well?

It is now, apparently.--Orthologist 20:27, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Handler or Snicket?

It is important to remember that Lemony Snicket is not merely a pseudonym for Daniel Handler. Snicket is a character in the books, with his own interests, motivations, agenda, prejudices and style. Frankly, I think that all the related articles should be examined and edited with that in mind. Ronstew 15:18, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Box Sets

shouldn't the box-set names be included ,with a smaple picture of what they might look like? (The Compelte Wreck has a good cover). also, there are bigger images for TPP (US) and TE (UK), and clearer pictures for TEE (US) and TEE (UK) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.1.6.209 (talk) 01:49, 8 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Rewriting Daniel Handler's writing style

Currently the information in this section doesn't qualify here and instead only allusion. It needs expansion. Snowynight 15:33, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Motifs

There needs to be a section on motifs. I've never read anything so saturated with recurrent themes and literary devices that have symbolic significance. 65.96.209.236 21:50, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

The problem with adding symbolism to an article is that it is original research. (WP:NOT). A reader's interpretation of a literary work is merely biased opinion.--Ed ^{¿Cómo estás?} 04:58, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Writing down the plot of the books is original research, too, as you have to have read the books to verify it. It's no arcane secret that there are words and phrases that get repeated multiple times throughout each book. An interpretation of the significance of those motifs might be original research, but I don't believe that it would be original research merely to list them. The End manages it.

It shouldn't be that hard to find motifs in published sources. Superm401 - Talk 06:29, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I started it off with disguises. Superm401 - Talk 06:43, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Mrmoocow removed the section without even an edit summary; I've replaced it. Superm401 - Talk 07:02, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure you meant no harm by adding in the motifs section, but currently the ASUE project is trying to cut down on the amount of speculation and original research on ASUE related pages. Although the statements are accurate and fairly sourced, simply having a "motifs" section opens the door to speculation, especially from new or unregistered users. This page used to have a section called "Unanswered Questions" which was removed because, although parts of it were valid, almost daily, things that were irrelevant, unnecesary or pure speculation were added. That is proabably whats going to happen to the motifs section. <3Clamster 15:25, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

That's not an acceptable reason. You don't remove sourced information because someone could add unsourced information. I have this page on my watchlist, and will help remove original research and unsourced speculation. However, you mustn't remove valid and relevant information with citations. Superm401 - Talk 22:40, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Evil man

As much as I agree that Olaf is an evil man, calling him as so is still somewhat opinionated. Wouldn't it be better to say 'in the author's words, Count Olaf is an evil man'? Mrmoocow 06:56, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Better still to show that he is portrayed as evil, giving examples (preferably ones described in external reviews). Superm401 - Talk 06:28, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] AID

Don't post the Article Improvement drive to the article; it's only supposed to be on talk. Superm401 - Talk 06:28, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] ASUE

Please, who removed the box at the bottom of the page that links to other ASOUE pages? Uioh 02:04, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

It was removed in one of the vandal edits. I've replaced it. It can be put onto a page using the coding {{ASUE}} <3Clamster 02:56, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] First-person or third-person?

I've never been able to figure out which these books should be considered as. To the best of my knowledge, they're unique in all literature. Do any other books have an essentially omniscient narrator with a clearly defined personality, background, and indirect role in the story, but who nevertheless never directly affects the plot? Penultimate Peril aside, that is, and I don't think that counts. --Shay Guy 15:42, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

~Actually, in the study of literature, you consider the author as always being separate from the narrator. Even though the narrator is more fully fleshed out in these books (and no, it isn't unique in literature - Sheridan Le Fanu's In a Glass Darkly use a similar technique) it's still third person, since Snicket isn't one of the main characters. --Vampire Hermes 15th Jan.

I'm not sure if the events of the books would have come about if Lemony had never existed, though; he knew many of the backstory characters in their youth, and he's the one who stole the sugar bowl (although that arguably only impacts on Esmé-related plots). I'd still call them third-person, though, as the books aren't about Lemony, he's just telling the story.

Yes, but he sometimes stop narrating to mention incidents from his life in first person. My point is, the series is nor first-person, neither third-person. It constantly switches, so it's both.--Orthologist 19:00, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Movie shoot

I noticed that the movie section says this: "Also, Silberling is quite unhappy that the filming process took seven months instead of the seven weeks in which he claimed he could shoot the movie." This is taken from an external article that got its facts wrong. In the original interview, Silberling said it was a very taxing 7-month shoot for him, and that he's not sure he'll be on the second movie, because he'd rather make a more intimate movie that wouldn't take more than 7 weeks to shoot. He never said he would make ASOUE2 in 7 weeks. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.70.12.179 (talk) 10:26, 17 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Age Range

It would be nice to have the expected age range for reading the books included.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.145.59.33 (talk • contribs).

Expected by who? This would definitely need a source. Superm401 - Talk 02:21, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

The publishers, HarperCollins/Children's, have them set for ages "10 & Up" [1][2], but I generally see them in 9-12 sections in bookstores.

[edit] Film

I think the 'Film' section should be moved to a different article. --Orthologist 17:54, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

It is a little long. The cast could be cut down to the bare bones, and the section on the sequel could probably be trimmed and moved to the main article. Or removed entirely, given how long it's been. The section on the setting could be cut down a bit.

The film has its own article, Lemony Snicket's A Series of Unfortunate Events. The section could be trimmed down a little. <3Clamster 18:34, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 2nd series

I think that they should make a second series. maybe reveal some secrets. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.131.55.247 (talk) 00:51, 17 February 2007 (UTC).

See WP:CRYSTAL. This is speculation, and not even sourced. If there are speculations by notable persons we can include them, but we can't speculate ourselves.--Orthologist 18:57, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Scholarly sources

The forthcoming March issue of PMLA (Volume 122, issue 2) will have an article by Laurie Langbauer entitled "The Ethics and Practice of Lemony Snicket: Adolescence and Generation X." Awadewit 03:46, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Will this article be available online? <3Clamster 01:19, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Snicket as steampunk

I think we should go through this in detail before we consider re-nominating this for featured article. Let's start with facts - steampunk? I don't understand the link. I've never heard the series associated with steampunk, nor did steampunk ever cross my mind while reading them. This is an excellent time to get a source about the books being steampunk, rather than making an assertion that the books are steampunk. Anyone have any ideas, or should we remove the reference? --badlydrawnjeff talk 01:57, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not confident they are all that steampunk - or if they are, it's only in a very broad sense. It's more that they take place in an amalgamation of time periods without picking one over the other. Looking at the steampunk article, I guess that the books are inspired by an era when steam power was widely used but with prominent elements of either science fiction or fantasy, but like I said, that seems an awfully broad definition that could fit probably just about every book set in a kind of penny-dreadful setting. 217.42.64.32 09:20, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

There IS a source there, if you go to the genre section. I can get more for you if you like. Anyway; while reading the series, no, it didn't make me think 'this is a steam punk series' but thinking back on it, the series DOES fit the definition of steampunk. Mrmoocow 07:04, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

The source looks rather subjective to me, and not at all comprehensive; I'm not sure an offhand mention of the series as an example of steampunk, on an anime site I've never heard of, really fits attribution guidelines. Not that I know much about them, but it's probably about the most obscure and unrelated source anyone could find. 217.42.64.32 09:20, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I'm not sure an anime site is all that reliable regarding the genre of a textual book. Combine that with the point that, from my admittedly minimal research, only Wikipedia and these people are claiming as such, it seems more than a little fishy. --badlydrawnjeff talk 17:57, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I admit that the source wasn't the best one to use. However, if you put '"Lemony Snicket" steampunk', or '"A Series of Unfortunate Events" steampunk' into Google, it is obvious that the series has been oft referred to as steampunk. Anyway, I wasn't the one who originally put the 'steampunk' in the article. Perhaps we should vote on the matter? Mrmoocow 21:57, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

It's not really worth voting on - either we have reliable sources that refer to it as steampunk - and my google search doesn't turn up much in that department - or we don't. Even if some do refer to it as steampunk, it's not the only type of book it is, nor is it the most obvious one, nor is it the most oft-cited one. At best, steampunk is worth a mention if we have the sources. --badlydrawnjeff talk 23:38, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

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