Talk:Afterlife

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[edit] Page Identity

Should this page be redirected to eschatology, or vice-versa? Or should we develop these entries separately? RK

I think they're distinct topics. 'Afterlife' should address what happens to an individual when they die, if anything. 'Eschatology' should describe what a religion thinks will happen at or near the end of time, or the end of the current age. I think it means study of last things. Sure there may be some overlap, but there needn't be that much. --Wesley

Absolutely right, Wesley. And "Afterlife" is perfectly non-specific as to where: Hesperides Underworld Tartarus Hades Sheol Paradise Heaven Hell... "Proofs" of an afterlife are tiresome for rationalists to read and just ignite Odium theologicum, but the minutiae of what is believed are illuminating for every culture. Wetman 22:52, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

Wetman, it is indeed tiresome to read proofs. And even in a believer it can ignite Odium theologicum. Citing proof texts to support a particular POV is fruitless. But making available facts is most fruitful. Of course I am interested in what a Buddhist or a Catholic believes about life and afterlife, but I am equally and simultaneously interested in getting some NPOV facts to help me ascertain whether it is just so much speculation, or whether it is a synthesis of real experiences. We do need evidences and factual proofs--not as lined up by partisans to shore up their theology, but as aids in sifting the ludicrous from the impressive. Tom (hawstom) 18:02, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

I had a hard time myself feeling intuitive about Eschatology being used as a superset for Afterlife. But it is so described here, and apparently eschatologists do include afterlife within the purview of their studies. I do think we should not try to indicate that the connection is any more that a tenuous one. My core question is whether Afterlife is the right article under which to organize all such articles. I really can't think of a better one, with only Underworld and Eternity coming close. Which do you think works best as a hub for the subject? Tom (hawstom) 17:15, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

Please take a look at the Underworld article. The Underworld article has a mile-long list of beliefs on afterlife. If this article can refer to Underworld, then this article can trim the specific religions and become more strictly an explanation of modern generic concepts of afterlife, its beliefs and skepticisms. Or possibly this article can become very short and mostly just refer to other articles. Tom (hawstom) 18:50, 17 May 2004 (UTC)

This article reads like my pothead friend rambling about god. 65.42.228.230 23:25, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV on Afterlife

The recently added external links are all 'proving' that life after death exists. Does anyone have any good balancing links? --Delirium 21:07 20 Jul 2003 (UTC)

No. But there is a reason why there aren't. Historians don't tackle this issue, which exists only within the cult. Historians describe the cult, its rituals, its literature etc and its effects on human behavior. Justification is not part of real history, it its part of apologetics, within theology. For comparisons, read Talk:Historicity of Jesus Christ.Wetman 22:52, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

The pink elephant that is being avoided here, perhaps out of diplomacy, is the immense body of tradition and testimony on the afterlife from all times, places, faiths, and cultures. In some article there ought to be a discussion, based of course on the scientific methods of good scholarship, on what the preponderance of evidence indicates regarding afterlife, eternity, or heaven. If necessary, the focus could be on more recent testimony, with comparison to ancient and recent traditions to round out a likely picture of an actual experience and realm that has been experienced and described repeatedly for millenia. On television tonight, I heard the outrageous statement from Bill Moyer that "we have no firsthand accounts of what death is like." Wikipedia should address that ostrich mindset, not as a matter of faith, but of science. Hawstom 07:08, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)

To describe the way cultures have shown themselves that an afterlife exists, that's the actual substance of the entry here. Leave the "proofs" for another day. Or enter them at Apologetics.Wetman 22:52, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

I believe that humanities believe in the afterlife is solely fed by hope, by believing that there is life beyond death, one can deal with it a whole lot better. For example: losing a loved one is a painful experience which is made less painful through the belief that one day you may see them again in the 'afterlife', the saying 'he/she is in a better place is often used when someone dies. Not only does a belief in an 'afterlife' make the death of a loved one easierr to cope with, it also helps us deal with our own death. The idea of there being a heaven and hell might also exist to make the afterlife seem more real, by associating it with a set of rules and regulations it also gives people a skeleton in which people can base how they live they life, without relegions which distinguish right from wrong, crime and immoral would occur alot more often as more people would believe that their acts will not affect them in the 'afterlife'. Written By Daniel McCoy

[edit] ChaTo Reorganization

I don't know that your reorgianization is an improvement. In particular, you have split up the reward/punishment section from the reincarnation section, while leaving some important transitional language only in one section. You may be headed toward some brilliant reworking, but please don't forget to finsh what you have started. Tom (hawstom) 18:32, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I think there are two views of afterlife: either it is a DIFFERENT life as in heaven or hell, as in the western tradition, or it is another NORMAL life, as in the reincarnation. Those two views should be separated. Maybe the paragraph ordering is not right, but I think presenting both views separated is a good starting point for this article. I have not had too much time to research in this subject, but this is a colaborative project, so anyone can edit the page and add more information: go ahead and do it if you want. My recommendation is just to keep these two sub-topics separated. ChaTo 27 Apr 2004.

I like your recent work :-). I hope to see more of it. And I hope to work with you to harmonize/organize this issue among various articles. Tom (hawstom) 02:58, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

"Compare and contrast" is always the right approach. That authentic NPOV. Wetman 22:52, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] JW POV

I am not sure how/where the JW point of view on afterlife (namely that there is none) can fit in this article. I have reversion aversion, so I am going to leave for now. But it needs to be fixed by the editor who added it to the Rewards/Punishments section. Tom - Talk 21:26, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Link suggestions

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[edit] Request for your aid dealing with actions from a user against Religious, Spiritual and Esoteric articles

User:Baphomet. is damaging Wikipedia: he his trying to label Religious articles as Superstition (from a POV view of positivism, that he calls Science). At the article Reincarnation he just went on to add to category "Superstition" and later on without discussion put a POV msg in the article. Please see the discussion page between both of us Talk:Reincarnation#Superstition.

Through the use of a Culture created by extremism in Science, he is clearly trying to do the job that the Inquisition did in the Middle Ages in a Culture created by extremism in Religion. He is damaging Wikipedia in a subtle invious way!

Please see also the Alert message I have created at Wikipedia:Wikiquette_alerts#September_4, Thank you! --GalaazV 20:25, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Consider Revising

This sentence is silly:

These people usually see proponents of an afterlife as hiding their fear of death, attributable to evolution (i.e. humans have a fear of death because if they didn't, the species would cease to proliferate)

Do non-believers mostly consider the fear of death, which causes people to hold the belief in the afterlife, as a product of evolution? Most who reject the afterlife concept do not think of its role in evolution. Rintrah 13:50, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

the entire Criticism section is not very well written. for example:

"Based on the fact that in society most people accept that we did not exist prior to our birth, and that people have no concept of time during sleep, some atheists argue that the concept of an afterlife is illogical and unlikely."

what does this mean?? how does one's concept of time in sleep have anything to do with the afterlife? needs to be better explained. I tried to clean up the Criticism section a bit but some of it is badly worded and may need to be rewritten. --kotra 03:20, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Would you consider revising the opening sentence:

Creationists and the religious generally believe that there is such a thing as life after death.

Wouldn't you characterize "Creationists" as a subset of "the religious" and therefore a redundancy? Cbdeandc 20:04, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree, This statement definitely needs revision & it sounds very silly. Creationism is not a position to argue for/against the afterlife. (See Creationism) The sentence can be roughly revised as: "Followers of the major world religions and many others with an attachment to other spiritual philosophies believe that there is a life after death." (SirGalahad 22:15, 17 February 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Criticism

(moved to bottom by Mikkerpikker 19:14, 8 January 2006 (UTC))

I felt that the criticism section was a mess and rewrote it from scratch. If you disagree, let's discuss it here and hopefully reach a compromise.

The "Philosophical arguments" section strikes me as also needing significant attention, but as I'm not well-enough versed in philosophy I'm not going to touch it. Egomaniac 19:11, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Slight issue with the criticism section: "Despite there being some objective evidence to support these beliefs, skeptics assert that science cannot prove the existence of an afterlife. The fact that these beliefs are nevertheless widely held may be explained by wishful thinking."

Mostly, the first part--link to the objective evidence that explains the preceding conditions laid out by the skeptics, otherwise that line needs to be struck. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.13.13.148 (talk • contribs) .

I agree. Many do not know of any objective evidence to support belief in an afterlife, so further clarification is needed. If no examples of objective evidence are given, "Despite there being some objective evidence to support these beliefs" should probably be deleted. (I myself believe in an afterlife, but I don't believe science can currently prove its existence.) -kotra 03:31, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I can't help but feel that this article ignores a whole raft of work and empirical studies carried out by credible scientists which is as of yet to be discredited. I'm thinking of things like the Scholes reports, or the studies carried out involving Mrs Piper. Any arguments against me inserting a paragraph or two on this? At the moment I think this article reads like an atypical skeptical material-death POV common with the current academic mindset. Treblent 17:48, 13 June 2006 (BST)

[edit] Slight Christian POV

At this time there are two quotes from the New Testament (Mark and Corinthians) and none from other scripture (except an Old Testament (Ecclesiastes) quote which is needed for the somewhat random Jehovah's Witness bit). In the interest of equality, would it be possible to replace one of the New Testament quotes or add another additional quote from other scripture? Possibly from the Qur'an, the Vedas, or others? I'm not interested in making this a Wikiquote page, but it would be nice if there was something relevant to add from a non-Christian source. kotra 06:51, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Logical arguments

The newly created logical arguments section seems to almost exclusively put forth discussion on the existence or nonexistence of the soul. While I agree that the soul is essential for afterlife, arguments for the existence or nonexistence of it belong in the article Soul only, not here. In the interest of brevity, I shortened the section to a couple sentences ([1] [2] [3]), providing a wikilink to Soul in case one might want to learn further about arguments for or against the soul. Is there a reason why these arguments should be explained in both the Soul article and the Afterlife article? -kotra 09:41, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

I got rid of much of this section, and put the relevant parts in other sections. It still reads like someone's blog, not an encyclopedia article. I think this article needs to be reworked, so that it systematically describes the concept of the afterlife as manifested in history, instead of arguing for and against it. I think a historical approach, would be best, tracing the intellectual traditions of Western and Eastern thought. Djcastel 18:39, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Related studies

The whole section Related studies is going, for three reasons related to the three small paragraphs (sentences) in it:

In philosophy, the study of views of the afterlife is a concern of Eschatology, which deals with the soul, the resurrection of the dead, the messianic era, and the end of the world. No, eschatology is studied as a separate field in no philosophy dept. of which I am aware, though it is often a topic in the Philosophy of religion as well as philosophical theology. This is simply inaccurate. Eschatology is the purview of theology depts., where it is accorded greater or lesser status depending on the type of theology taught there, which gets us far from the topic at hand. It could be changed to "In theology..." but the issue of religion is discussed elsewhere in the article, quite NPOV I might add, well done. Besides, strictly speaking the field of eschatology deals with what happens at the end of history (Christian second coming of Christ, Buddhism's Maitreya the Buddha of the Future, etc), while afterlife deals with what comes after death for individual sentient subjects. Yet another reason these statements are just wrong.
The question of whether there is life after death is closely related to the mind-body problem, and like that problem is one of the classic problems of so-called rational psychology and hence of one (now largely outdated) notion of the scope of metaphysics. The first part of this is right, but the mind-body issue comes up elsewhere in the article. The second half of the sentence, besides being a grammatical monster, points us toward a non-existant link, and the issue of an afterlife isn't really something psychologists today deal with much (as my wife the therapist reminds me). Also, the statement about metaphysics is garbled; what is outdated, metaphysics qua metaphysics (really? My dept. hadn't heard that), or considering the afterlife within the field of metaphysics? Again, simply untrue (even avowadly non-theistic philosophers often use considerations of an afterlife as a thought experiment, or as the object of why they aren't theistic in the first place, see Anthony Flew for a great and well-respected example). So this whole part here is a mess.
The later works of Emanuel Swedenborg present one of the most comprehensive and systematic descriptions of the spiritual world, including heaven and hell. This is 100% accurate - and 100% irrelevant to the article. Yes, Swedenborg does offer these theories, as do virtually all other theologically-incined philosophers and religious leaders. So why mention only Swedenborg? No, I'm afraid that however much we like him, we can't just hold up Swedenborg's thoughts on this (which, I notice, were not detailed here) to the exclusion of others.

So all in all, the Related studies section fails the test of accuracy and relevance, so I am going to be bold and edit it out. Takes nothing away from an otherwise nice article. Yes, there are other studies, but this is not the way to list them. And listing them, I should think, would either play into the percieved Christian POV others see here (the mind-body problem is a particularly Western problem - thanks a lot, Descartes - and as such has an indelible stamp of Western religiosity on it, so I dont' see the POV, but whatever), or take the article too far from its main topic. Morgaledth 02:38, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

When deleting big chunks, please write an edit summary, referring to the talk page, otherwise your edit looked like a simple vandalism. `'mikka (t) 05:43, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] From Reincarnation

Does anyone else agree that most of the below information is better suited to this page? GourangaUK 15:17, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

In brief, there are several common concepts of a future life. In each of them either the person, or some essential component that defines that person (variously called the soul or spirit) persists in continuing existence:

People live on this earth, and then live in some kind of afterlife for the rest of eternity - variously called heaven (paradise) or hell, or the Kingdom of the Dead, or some higher plane, or similar. They do not return to earth as such.
People die, but will return to the earth or are revived in some final Judgement, or at some final battle (eg the Norse Ragnarok). They may go to heaven or hell at that time, or live again and repopulate the earth. This is often called an apocalyptic vision of the future.
People die, and are returned to this or another existence continually, their form upon return being of a 'higher' or 'lower' kind depending upon the virtue (moral quality) of their present life. This is often called Transmigration.
People die, go through inner planes and return, rebirth, (usually or often) as new human beings. Strictly, it is this which is known as reincarnation (also called "rebirth"). In many versions, eventually there is the potential to escape the cycle, e.g. by joining God, enlightenment, some kind of self-realization, a spiritual rebirth, entering a spiritual realm, etc. (There is some confusion, in general society, between reincarnation and transmigration; see below for comparison)

I agree.Jonathan Tweet 14:37, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] History of Afterlife Beliefs

I can't find a page anywhere that recounts the history of views about the afterlife as they have changed over time. This page seems like the right place. Other pages (Heaven, Christian Eschatology, etc.) are too narrow in scope for a treatment of afterlife beliefs over millennia and across continents. If there's a better place for a history-of-afterlife treatment, please let me know. Jonathan Tweet 00:03, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Someone started the section as a blank stub. I'm filling it in. I think the entries should be sparse because the details can be found on corresponding pages. I'm getting all (or almost all) my information from other Wikipedia pages.Jonathan Tweet 03:20, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Consequences of the Afterlife

If science were to prove that the Afterlife existed. What would be the consequence to humanity? Would violence skyrocket? Would suicide and abortion rates increase? How would it help or possibly discredit religion and the existence of God?

Input from Paladin_Hammer on the questions propsed: Nothing would really change with the common person. Think of the publics response to scientific theories/proof in the past 100 years. No theory, or piece of evidence, has ever been given close attention until its use has been proven usefull/harmfull. Think of atoms. For hundreds of years scientist said they existed, yet it wasn't until the hiroshima bomb was dropped or the public knew about it that any ever gave the atom serious thought. So unless scientist found "heaven" or could really "speak to the dead", or had an available use for this research, no one would care.

[edit] Re-introduced

"Some conceptions of the afterlife are not overtly religious. Certain scientific fields developed in the 20th and 21st centuries, that were previously either unknown or purely theoretical, support interesting speculation and questions regarding the afterlife.

Is consciousness a sole result of the specific configuration of matter of a living brain, or do some forms of consciousness or experience remain present in the matter and energy that used to be a living brain? If the latter is true, even in part, then it is not certain that the subjective experience of a being's consciousness ends at the time of death, which could be interpreted as a form of afterlife."

Many theories actuallt closely tie into this idea. I'm new so I can't exactly link it yet, but the "Conscious Matter" thoery supports this idea. Also, modern cognitive science isn't limiting itself to Newtonian Mechanics in its search for the questions regarding consciousness as Beland suggests, one theory suggests that the brain itself doesn't give rise to consciousness, rather that the EEG's of the brain do! (link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_theories_of_consciousness )Orch-Or rely's on small self-assembling protiens called "microtubules". Here is one that exactly states that conscoiusness is rooted in elementary particles! (link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#Conscious_matter )

Thus, to claim that there is not a scientific idea of a sort of 'afterlife' is false. While some of these theories may not be the afterlife in the classical sense (i.e. soul karma, heaven/hell, ghosts), they non-the-less leave us pondering. So it'sm only fair that we state that their are scientific ideas of an afterlife experince.

"These claims do however, lead interesting theories regarding consciousness, and possibly, an afterlife." I added this because when looking into the many theories that have been purposed regarding the possibilty of an "afterlife", it seems that the scientific community is really divided on it. Some appear to maintain that "it cannot possibly be real", while others seem more interested in the "what if-" ideas. I'm going to edit this in the future. Please don't edit until I've figured out the "linking" system here on wikipedia.

[edit] history

The introduction says that this page is about current beliefs, but there's a fair bit of historical information here, too. I think we should change the introduction to reflect the presence of the historical information. Jonathan Tweet 22:49, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jan 2007 changes

I've replaced the original section on "Afterlife in modern science", that The Transhumanist replaced with a section on cryonics. He also introduced some weird formatting and a lot of speculation to the "Is there life after death?" section (which looks like it was adapted from the "Philosophical arguments" section), but I don't have time or interest to investigate/fix anything more. Will leave to you, just wanted to point out. (not watchinglisting, leave questions at my talk, thanks). --Quiddity 21:49, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] BC

Can I congratulate you on using BC. May I point out that the modern 4 yearly leap year calendar was introduced on 26th Februay 1BC, (whilst jesus was probably born 4BC). BC is a very convenient term for "before calendar" and indicates that dates are open to dispute simply because the calendar was changeable. AS for B.C.E. I'm not sure why anyone would prefer "before christian era" with "before christ". But most of all - please keep BC, I regularly read articles with BCE/CE and for example I have occaisionally confused dates such as "48CE" with "4BCE". Mike 16:14, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

BCE actually stands for "before the Common Era. --Minderbinder 14:14, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Religion, Science, and the Afterlife

Recommend that whole section is removed. After all, shouldn't it be two sections, "Religion and the Afterlife" which is discussed throughout the article, and "Science and the Afterlife" and some scientific bits. But given the current state of the section, it doesn't read well at all and is probably better deleted or significantly reworded. Shot info 04:18, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Afterlife in Modern Science

I'm deleting the Cryonics and Science fiction subsections. Cryonics is not an afterlife belief, and the Science fiction subsection contains much off-topic meandering unreferenced philosophical speculations. Cryobiologist 22:01, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

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