Talk:Alans
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[edit] on the section "Alans and Slavs"
The Serboi are quite differently identified in the Oxford Dictionary of Byzantium. They seem quite securely continuously connected to "Serbs" rather than "Slavs" Wetman 00:16, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- I don't follow, what exactly do you mean? --Shallot 00:22, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- To elaborate further, I don't see anything quite so different in the identification of the Serboi in that document, and continuously connecting Serboi to Serbs is exactly what the newly added text in this article does, too. --Shallot 01:34, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)
An average historically literate reader, meeting such novel information, reasonably needs more help, and asks the questions I've inserted in italics:
- All these questions are valid, but only if you've never read anything about early south Slavic (before they became the /south/ Slavs) history before :) --Shallot 01:30, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)
"Alan tribes living north of the Black Sea may have moved northeast into what is now Poland, merging with Slavic peoples there to become the precursors of historic Slav nations. Third-century inscriptions from Tanais, a town on the Don RiverTanais is not the Don River itself then? in modern Ukraine,
- I believe Tanais is the name of the ancient Greek colony near Rostov on Don. --Shallot
mention a nearby Alan tribe called the Choroatus or Chorouatos.in a list or how?
- On two tablets that are kept in the Archeological museum in Saint Petersburg, Russia. This is from the Croats article, actually. --Shallot
The historian PtolemyGeography? what book, where? identifies the 'Serboi' as a Sarmatian tribe who lived north of the Caucasus,
- Well, maybe see in the document that you quoted? --Shallot
and other sources who in the 2nd century? indentify the Serboi as an Alan tribe in the Volga-Don steppe in the Third century.
- That I don't know. --Shallot
Accounts of these names reappear in the fifth century, with the Serboi, or Serbs, established east of the river Elbe similar names all right: we need a hint why these are identical in what is now western Poland, and the Croats in what is now Polish Galicia.
- Interpolating names is a pretty common theme among historians, at least from what I've seen... --Shallot
The Alan tribes likely moved northeast and settled among the Slavs, dominating and mobilizing how would we know they did that? the Slavic tribes they encountered and later assimilating into the Slav population.
- Well, I'm not sure about this either, but probably because these Slavs later migrated to the south. Moving by virtue of being "pushed" by another people who came from the east has been a theme of the great migrations for centuries... --Shallot
In 620 the Croats and Serbs were invited into the Balkans by Eastern Roman Emperor Heraclius he sent messengers to Poland? a quote from the chronicler would help here
- I don't know exactly, but this is standard history book information. Must be in his chronicles or something. --Shallot
-
- FWIW, I believe that a source for this is De Administrando Imperio, chapter 30th. There could be others, too. --Shallot 18:31, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)
to drive away the Turkic Avars the Avars were Turkic?,
and settled there among earlier Slavic migrants there were already Slavic migrants in what became Serbia then?
- The first wave of migrations reportedly happened some 20-30 years earlier, and these were pushed by the Avars or some such, I don't recall the details exactly. Also, not just Serbia but the whole Dinaric Alps. --Shallot
to become ancestors of the modern Serbs and Croats. Some Serbs remained on the Elbe, and their descendants are the modern Sorbs.Sorbs equal Serbs then?
- Again you question something that is pretty much already explained in the relevant articles. --Shallot
Tenth-century Byzantine and Arab accounts we're not very intimately familiar with this literature: history? geography? battles? describe a people called the Belochrobati (White Croats) living on the upper Vistula, an area later called Chrobatia.in Byzantine sources maybe?
- I understand the desire to have absolutely everything covered with exact sources, but you have to understand that not every contribution has to be incorrect just because it doesn't have all of its background diligently included as well. --Shallot 01:30, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)
This entire thesis (i.e., that Alan groups migrated into Poland and assimilated with various Slavic tribes) seems to be derived from the ideology of Sarmatism (the belief of late medieval Polish nobility that their families had a separate origin from that of the Polish peasantry). The only historians I've seen speculate about it are from Poland (e.g., Tadeusz Sulimirski) and the former Yugoslavia (where it also seems to be ideologically motivated). But no Alan group is historically attested anywhere near Poland, or mentioned in association with a Slavic tribe; and the migration of steppe nomads out of the steppe region towards the Baltic would run counter to the behavior of all other such groups over the course of recorded history. --Abou Ben Adhem
Croats are attested near Poland, migrations are part of the recorded history and so on... Some symbols, some words, some traditions in Croatian language and culture have roots from Midlle East but in the same time Croatian and Polish have many surprisingly identical words even languages are not the same. Also Polish accent sounds like archaic Croatian. 83.131.142.53 17:46, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Zulqarneyn
"A very similar story is also mentioned in Qur'an as Zulqarneyn and Yajooj-Majooj" An anonymous User inserted this. Can anyone expand this cryptic remark about an obscure figure and the giants Gog and Magog to make any relevance to historic Alans apparent? Thank you. Wetman 16:06, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- A new link made to the scarcely identifiable Zulqarneyn shows that the remark is not relevant to the Alans after all. Thank you. I'll delete it. --Wetman 22:07, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
[edit] genetics
With regard to the links of Iranian and Slavonic peoples, there are discussions at:
--Joy [shallot] 11:11, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Gibraltar?
"Along with the Vandals and Suevi, these Alans eventually reached the shores of Gibraltar." This is so specifically detailed, you'd think it must depend on some reference. Can anyone pull this together and return it to the article? (Cantabria, yes, but Gibraltar?) --Wetman 05:24, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
“Gallaeciam Wandali occupant et Suevi, sitam in extremitate Oceani maris occidua. Alani Lusitaniam et Carthaginiensem provincias, et Wandali cognomine Silingi Baeticam sortiuntur”
[1] //hbar.phys.msu.su/gorm/chrons/idatchrn.htm
[2] www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Pagoda/7675/historia.html#tarih
- Also, Sidonius Apollinaris, in his eulogy for Ricimer, says that when Ricimer's grandfather Wallia defeated the Vandals and Alans in 418, "their bodies covered Calpe (i.e., Gibraltar)". --Abou 21:09, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Eastern Alans?
There seems to be some confusion in the article between the use of the term "eastern Alans" to describe, on the one hand, those Alans remaining in the Caucasus region after the invasion of the Huns; and on the other, Alans who were settled on the middle and lower Danube in the 5th century. I think the latter should be grouped with the 'western Alans', as they likely all moved west together in the late 4th cent. While some of the Danubian Alans served under Attila, they were resettled by the Romans in Moesia after Attila's death and there's no indication that they ever returned to the Caucasus. --Abou 21:09, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Kosta Xetagurov
Is anyone interested in information on him, I have alot of information on him I just have to translate it to english.
[edit] Beorgor
Count Marcellinus: "Beorgor, king of the Alans, was killed by king Ricimer" [Beorgor rex Alanorum a Ricimere rege occiditur].
Cassiodorus: "In this year, Beorgor, king of the Alans, was killed at Bergamo by the Patrician Ricimer" [his conss. rex Halanorum Beorgor apud Pergamum a patricio Ricimere peremptus est].
The Fasti vindobonenses priores: "In this year, on 6 February, Beorgor, king of the Alans, was killed at Bergamo, at the foot of the mountains" ["his cons. occisus est Beorgor rex Alanorum Bergamo ad pede montis VIII idus Februarias"]
[edit] Karachays and Balkars
The link given for the claim that the Karachays and Balkars are "descendants" of the Alans seems only to speculate that some Alans may have assimilated into these Turkic peoples at some point, not that the Alans are their primary ancestors. Could someone with a better knowledge of Russian confirm this? -- Abou 16:02, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
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- I did a babelfish translation and it is not from alexeev.. it seems barefact or another person wrote it!.. Either way there should be some english material on such a subject and there seems not be. --alidoostzadeh 02:20, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] History or Story?
Actually I could not understand this "iranian nomadic group" assertion. What is the referances and where is the evidence? Although there is no evidence which verifies "iranian thesis(?)" there are unquestionable referances about Alan's Turkic origin. Spanish etnograph Manuel Thomas Tabenara and Kazan Professor M.Z. Zakiyev say that Alans were a Turkic originated society. Besides we should analyze the linguistic relations. Linguistic relations are important indicators in these etnographic uncertainities. What are the relevances between iranian and Alan language? Or there is a relation between these? However a Turkish speaking people could understand Alan language but not speak. When I read this article, i questioned "History". Where is the scientific way of history? Is this an unreal story? Ok, I'm saying firsly here: I have discovered America. I have discovered before Columbus in 1451-14 February. Is this History?--Karcha 21:01, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
- I don't think the "neutrality" is in question. If you want to see sources and references, put citation tags on the sentences in question. Therefore I am reverting the non-NPoV template. Hu 21:25, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
- The 'Iranian' reference is derived from the original text of the article, taken from the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica. This information is also found in the current Encyclopedia Britannica and virtually every other major English-language reference work. You can argue with the accuracy of this information if you have evidence to the contrary, but you can hardly dispute its general acceptance or neutrality. —Abou 13:59, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
- Now i'm looking at "Britannica Online, Academic Edition" and I could not see anything about iranian origin there. I wonder which edition yours? Iranian edition?...--Karcha 19:03, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
- I think the only Neutrality in question at this point is yours, Karcha. I think it is inappropriate to slap a tag on the whole article. You need to put a citation tag on a atatement you think is unsupported. Hu 19:36, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
The modern day group most closely aligned with the Alanis of history are in Ossetia and speak languages (Ossetic language) that are clearly in the Iranian group of languages. So your language hypothesis is on shaky ground at best. The existence of some groups of Turkic peoples in the Russian Ciccaucasus that call themselves Alanic Turks is compatible with the Iranic origins of the Alani, who ultimately are related to the Scythians and Sarmatians, who moved south as well as west. There is good genetic evidence of the remnants of the Alani groups who migrated all the way to far western Europe, but just because they don't speak Iranian (or Turkish) doesn't mean that their origins in the steppes of south central Russia should be discarded. Hu 19:54, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] On the 18 Oct Emendation "Kabardian"
I cannot begin to fathom why "Ossetian" would have been replaced in the following {The Alans were also known over the course of their history by another group of related names including the variations "Asi", "As", and "Os" (Russian Jasy, Georgian Osi). It is this name which is the root of the modern "Kabardian".} How can "Kabardian" have its roots in "Asi", "As", and "Os" (Russian Jasy, Georgian Osi)? Doc Rock 12:18, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Zelenchuk Inscription
Look at the Zelenchuk inscription. There are very clear proofs about Ossetic (Iranian) language of Alans. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.96.136.247 (talk • contribs) 09:13, 11 November 2006.
[edit] Edits by Nasz 2007-02-19
These edits by Nasz look like a strange mix of vandalism (e.g., This is liguistic Alans bounding, words move like wind but gens can't be teach) and an attempt to make a productive contribution. I don't want to just revert them, but the edits as they stand are unintelligible... —Abou 06:29, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
