Talk:Ancient Macedonians

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Contents 1 Non-Hellenic words? 2 Another example of FYROM double standards 3 =Hellenistic absorbed??= 4 NPOV 5 Cool down guys 6 Mallacaos' additions 7 Ethnicity 8 Greeks and Macedonians

[edit] Non-Hellenic words?

find me a ancient macedonian word with a non-hellenic etymology. I challenge everyone to bring it on the discussion group.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.133.162.45 (talk • contribs).

...ooooh....a challenge....sort of like arm-wrestling. very macho. Actually, there apparently are a number of Macedonian words that don't have clear "hellenic etymologies", but these can be viewed as loanwords from another people, so your challenge is irrelevant, and would not prove anything pro or con. good luck finding another earth-shattering challenge. In the meanwhile, try to use this talk page to discuss changes to the article's content.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.228.53.144 (talk • contribs).

[edit] Another example of FYROM double standards

How typical from our northern neigbours. When you refer to yourselves, you demand that everybody calls you Macedonian because that's what you call yourselves. But when you refer to the Ancient Macedonians, who SELF IDENTIFIED as Greeks, we have to sit and listen to what you (or some propaganda sources of yours) say about them. There is a Greek saying (from the Greek shadow puppet theater of Karagiozis) that goes: "Mine is mine and yours is mine". --    Avg    02:46, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

• Ancient Macedonans that self identified as Greeks?? Where did you get that idea from? I have never heard it. --B. Jankuloski 23:21, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

uhmmm, mr Jankuloski, do you really think that a person with your last name is related in any way to ancient Macedonians?? In fact the name Macedonia is Greek, related to the adjective makednos and to the root mak- still existing in the greek word mak-ros, you can find it yourself in greek-origined english modern words such as macro-economics. Educate yourself before trying to bias history for your own nationalistic purposes. And if you can not find any ancient macedonians self identifying themselves as ancient Greeks look for Alexander the 1st in the early 5th century BC. Why dont you look up the names of ancient Macedonians: Krateros, Philippos, Amyntas, Olympias, Alexandros, Gorgias, Aristoteles, Protagoras, Parmenion, Hephaistion etc etc etc. ALL GREEK. You could not find one single name of an Ancient Macedonian that does not have a purely greek name. And i could tell you this. I am a greek but i do not care at all if Ancient Macedonians were Greeks or just a neighbour nation to Greeks like the ancient Thracians. Since they decided to embrace the greek culture and to be assimilated by Greeks, whats your problem? that still makes them Greeks. Blood doesnt count. What counts is culture, civilization, language and what you really want to be. I recognize your right to have as part of your national name the term "Macedonian", you could call your country either Northern Macedonia, Slavomacedonia or FYR Macedonia. Why dont you recognize our right to not let you Slavomacedonians monopolize this name and its history? At least my name is Dionysios, related to the god Dionysos, worshipped by ancient Macedonians and Alexander the Great (Alexandros o Megas). What is your name really mister -ski? (Dionysios 16:45, 25 January 2007 (UTC))

[edit] =Hellenistic absorbed??=

The following paragraph makes absolutely no sense:

"Historians generally agree that the ancient Macedonians - whether they spoke a Greek dialect or a distinct language - were absorbed into the Koine Greek-speaking population in Hellenistic times."

Wrong time period. The Hellenistic period did not begin until after the death of Alexander the Great, while we know that the ancient kingdom of Macedon started to take part in the Greek world since at least Alexander I of Macedon, that's a century before King Philip II of Macedon was even born. ~Mallaccaos, 25 May 2006

The assimilation of XMK as a language/ethnicity is generally thought to have taken place in Hellenistic times, not before Alexander III's death. In the lead paragraph things are usually kept brief, but you can add info about the process beginning in pre-Hellenistic times. 69.106.104.144 17:56, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

That doesn't match up with the other aspects that have so far been found, which point that XMK as a language/ethnicity was at least starting taken place since the 5th century BC, such as: aside from Thucydides, who lived in the 5th century bc, proclaiming them as part of the ancient "Hellenic" tribes branch, we also have Alexander I of Macedon, who modeled his court after Athens and was a patron of the poet Pindar; Strattis Athenian comedy which presents Macedonian speech as a form of Greek; the Hesychius of Alexandria glosses where the majority of these words can be confidently identified as Greek; Persians who had no stake in calling them Greek, such as King Darius Hystaspes, who ruled over the Macedon kingdom during the 5th century bc, would call them Yaunâ Takabarâ ("Greeks with sunhats"), Yaunâ=Persian word when referring to Greeks and Takabarâ=Persian world in reference to the Macedonian headwear. The Persians must have seem some sort of Hellenic influence to call their Macedonian subjects "Yauna"; the Persians dealt with the ancient people back then, they didn't call the Thracians, Libyans, Carians etc as such, but they did with Macedonians. Plus the Persians had Greeks living in their back yards all over Asia Minor, I'm sure they could have told the difference between the people they ruled over; King Archelaus establishing the new capital at Pella, and holding annual festivals in honor of Zeus at Dion (a city right next to Mt. Olympus); Southern Greeks such as Euripides, Agathon and the famous painter Zeuxis composing some of their most famous works in Macedon at the request of King Archelaus. By the 4th century BC there already numerious Doric inscriptions from pre-Hellenistic Macedon, such as the Pella katadesmos which points that not only there might be the chance that the royal Macedonian families were the only ones who spoke/wrote in some Hellenic dialect but so did the regular folk in a Hellenic Doric/North Western dialect which was not Attic or Koine. Which is why I questioned the "absorbance", if one has that view, of Macedon during the Hellenistic ages, when there is some evidence to suggested it might have started earlier then that. ~Mallaccaos, 25 May 2006

Just a few corrections:

• The political acts of Alexander I tell us something about the political orientation of that king, but hardly about the ethnic background of his subjects - nobody doubts Macedonia started importing Attic culture from the south around that time. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:01, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

The way the first paragrapher of this article was phrased, it sounded like it didn't. ~Mallaccaos, 25 May 2006

• Of the Strattis comedy, one single sentence is preserved, in a writer quoting it centuries later - I'd like to see a reference to a reputed linguist discussing what evidence this yields for the Macedonian language issue.

And how many sentences 'have been preserved to tells us that this single sentence proves other wise? What we do know is that the person playing the Macedonian in the play pronounces Αττικοι as Ωττικοι and υμεις as υμες. I haven't seen anyone disproven this as being false yet.~Mallaccaos, 25 May 2006

Yes, and in the interest of WP:NOR, could you please point us to the linguistic article that discusses how well these supposed dialect features fit in with the properties of the Pella dialect? (Not that I'd exclude they might, but who here is competent to judge this?) By the way, I might be wrong here, but isn't "Ωττικοί" just a case of standard crasis of vocative "ω" with "Αττικοί"? Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:53, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

The minute it is pointed to us of the linguistic articles which gives "proof" Borza's "linguistic" evidence disproves ancient Macedonian falling under the Greek dialects. As to the source of the Strattis comedy, it was taken from an article by Alfred Korte quoting Athenaios VII,323b which Sakellariou translated into English. ~Mallaccaos, 27 May 2006

Ah, that's something. Could you provide a full citation of the source so we can include it in the article? As for the linguistic discussion about the pros and cons of the Greek-dialect hypothesis, see the language article, it quotes a few things. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:02, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

P.S.: Ah, I now see you probably got the info from this third-class nationalist website: [1]. That web author manages to get even the quote from Sakellariou wrong. "Ma freen", αα ρε φίλε indeed! Let me make a suggestion: We should all get down from our respective soapboxes and spend a bit more time in libraries instead of on the web arguing and edit-warring. I'm still planning to rewrite the article, but not before I have read both Borza and Sakellariou in the original, and I very much recommend everybody else do the same. I'm not going to enter into any more arguments based on cheap web material. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:23, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

• Hesychius is 5th century CE not BCE, almost a millenium after the critical period you're talking about.

I stand corrected on the century but its value can be seen the dialects which are found in it do take back to the works of Aeschylus and Theorcritus which also includes the Macedonian dialect.~Mallaccaos, 25 May 2006

• There aren't "numerous" Doric inscriptions, AFAIK. There's the Pella katadesmos and very little else. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:01, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Ofcourse, and as it was stated above, there so much evidence which points to it not falling within the Greek dialects. [roll] Isn't it funny that with each find, it mostly confirms its association with Greek then disproves it? Its interesting that King Archelaus called his new capital Pella, derived from the Doric word, APELLA, which the Doric speaking Spartans (not close friends of the Macedon btw) also used in refrence to a ceremonial location; and what did Archelaus do after building Pella? Ah yes, annual festivals in honor of Zeus at Dion.~Mallaccaos, 25 May 2006

• The Doric material (both Pella and Strattis) do not contradict the claim above about integration into the Koiné Greek-speaking population in hellenistic times, but support it. Whatever the relation between those Doric fragments and the elusive "Macedonian" proper - neither of them was Koiné. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:01, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

What people seem to not understand when making claims such as that is that the Hellenistic Koiné Greek dialect, which was btw was based on the Attic dialect with numerious regional influences from local dialects, was not a phenomenon particular to Macedonia. Throught out the Greek world the Attic koine replaced the local dialects. So if you are basing the suppose "hellenization" of Macedonian on the integration of Koine Greek, then you might as well base that theory through out the ancient Greek world and say that Attica, Sparta and Thebes became "hellenized" at that same period too. ~Mallaccaos, 25 May 2006

I know what Koine was, thank you very much. The original sentence expressed the development quite precisely: Before the Hellenistic age, there was something that may or may not have been a Greek dialect; after the Hellenistic age, there was something else that was Koine. Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:53, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

The original sentence, gave one the assumption that Macedon became a "Hellenic" culture after the entire world had been conquered and Hellenized by the Macedonian Empire, when for the Macedonians to be "supposedly" so "Hellenized" by the time of Alexander the Great, their "Hellinization" would have started much earlier then Koine Hellenic age. Couplet with that all the other material written in this article, it gave the article a different feel to it...which I tried to balance with some of the material I added. This current version which you cleaned up, is much better, IMO, and more balanced to what we do know so far. ~Mallaccaos, 25 May 2006

Glad we agree at least on this. :-) I'd still like to do a rewrite of the whole "controversy" section further down, but it's a big task. We can then also re-introduce some of the material you mentioned, I'd just want to frame it differently. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:02, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

there is no reason to treat "Ancient Macedonians" in an article different from Macedon. This is a blatant pov fork, containing nothing but a rehash of the topics covered there. A clear "Merge with Macedon". Stop littering new pov forks just to score points in the tired old and boring "Macedonia" coflict. dab (ᛏ) 20:05, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

This article was created by Alexander 007 following a discussion held at Talk:Macedon; and I hadn't been informed that we were vicious pov-pushers attempting to assure the victory for x side. As for "nothing but a rehash of the topics covered there", I found this statement sort of weird; where is the stuff in Macedon that is also in Ancient Macedonians?--Aldux 20:25, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I guess the original idea was okay, but the article has spun a bit out of control and has become POV-forkish in large parts through some recent additions. I wouldn't mind refactoring it back into the two other articles, but I think the most pressing task is to put the discussion on a decent basis in the literature, and not that cheap rehashed stuff from the usual nationalist websites (see above). Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:38, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

It a merge is going to take place, then exactly what is merged should be filtered carefully. I think the last sections, expecially the Hellenic controversy section, may not be needed at all. --Telex 20:46, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

One of the reasons this article was created was to free Macedon from the Hellenic controversy section, that was large, ugly and unscholarly. Removing it made Macedon better and far more peaceful, and I don't want to return to the previous condition. This article is bad now, but it can always be bettered.--Aldux 20:58, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Since the [personal attacks removed] have begun to attack this page also, I should explain that the first reference to Herodotus and the Dorians is not mine, although I believe it correct; the second is from Sakellariou's Macedonia. Septentrionalis 23:30, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't matter, the way it's written it is as if the article is trying to pass a hidden clue to the reader "fairy (bullshit) story" or "Alexander and Philip use that in order to pretend to be Greeks (which they weren't)" etc, etc. Miskin 23:39, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

PMA/Sept: The evident attacker is you. The vandals you are insinuating are actually very reasonable and contributing users, who are protecting the article from your POV edits, undue weight and original research. Try to blow your steam some other way, or be prepared to face the necessary consequences of WP:NPA.  NikoSilver  ^{(T) @ (C)} 23:41, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

On the contrary, I'm taking Telex's suggestion, and citing Herodotus and Sakellariou here. 23:55, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

Pmanderson do you think I'm not in possession of sources that say exactly what I want to write? Well you're wrong. The only reason I'm not making blunt edits here (although I can source every one of them) is because I'm respecting the NPOV policy, which clearly states that during highly controversial subject, _none_ of the views should be favoured over the other. I rewrote your edits in order to respect that policy, and what I get in return is a bunch of banal personal attacks. Miskin 23:46, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Niskin has now four times deleted a sourced citation of evidence not otherwise mentioned in this article. This is against policy (and common honesty). If he objected to the phrasing, that was within his rights to alter; to delete facts is vandalism. Septentrionalis 23:52, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

<YAWNS> Miskin 23:54, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Next time you want to report someone for 3RR, I would advise you to look at the diffs _before_ clicking the edit button. Miskin 00:09, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cool down guys

Okay, you've all edit-warred enough for today.

• I agree with Pmanderson that Herodot's origin stories need to be put into some context, as there certainly are scholars who regard them as (a) mythical and/or (b) applying only to the royal house, not to the people in general. Both can easily be referenced. I think the text he proposed was not quite optimal though, I'd try to make it shorter.
• As for the language formulation ("the language spoken..."), to my mind that formulation is so neutral it does not, in itself, entail a claim to separate-language status. Therefore, the addition ("... or Greek dialect") is unnecessary.

What else were you quarrelling about? Fut.Perf. ☼ 00:34, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

• • Of course contributions should be edited. If I had been edited, rather than having the text blanked, I would have let reasonable alternatives stand.
  • "Language" is incidental damage, although it is used in this context even by those who consider Macedonian a Greek variant; it is fairly widely considered to be further from the (other) Greek dialects than they are from each other.
  • Miskin has blanked all reference to Herodotus's account of the Argead descent; this unquestionably belongs in this article. I will quote it in full if necessary, although it should not be.
  • He has also left the impression that, if accepted, it would imply the same descent for the Macedonian generals, which does not follow. Septentrionalis 15:16, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

As I said before this is a very controversial topic and edits must be very elegant. Pmanderson's were not at all, so I rewrote what I could and removed what seemed to be out of context. Nothing is conclusive and no view must be favoured over the other. All views must be given equal emphasis, and the order of presentation will depend on how many sources support each view (and not on the priority Alexander_007 decided to give). The article's sections must also be re-organised. Miskin 01:39, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I have yet to come across a scholar who questions or refutes Herodotus' citation in the article, i.e. that Macedonians were Dorian settlers. The Achaean and Heraclid origin of the Argead dynasty is a different story, and whether factual or not, it was accepted in antiquity even by Thucydides. However historian today do question its validity. Pmanderson's edits on the other hand were implying that scholars who doubt the mythical origin of the Argead dynasty would also doubt the Herodotian account on the Doric origin of Macedonians, which is not at all the case. One is about the Macedonians in general and the other is about its Royal family. Miskin 15:43, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

By the way pmanderson, there is a school of scholars which regards Macedonian speech to be a Hellenic language sister to the known Greek dialects, and there's another school which regards it simply a Greek dialect with Thraco-Illyrian admixtures. The view on Macedonian being completely distinct to Greek is held by a minority. Miskin 15:48, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh and pmanderson try to look at other people's edits before accusing them. I didn't blank the reference on Herodotus' accounts on the Argead dynasty [2] (eventhough it's mentioned later in the article). I removed a small paragraph which was making POV conclusions on the ethnicity of the Hellenistic rulers, who were in reality not even Macedonians, therefore largely irrelevant to the section and the article in general. Miskin 15:52, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I removed the following:

• "Both Philip II and Alexander the Great used this claim of kinship to secure recognition as Greeks, including an invitation to the Olympic Games."

Eventhough this is probably sourced, within a such controversian topic you cannot present it as factual, let alone stick it in the "origins" section. As I said before, in my opinion pmanderson's purpose was to mislead the reader into believing that Herodotus' acount on the Dorian invasion is as mythical as his record on the Argead dynasty. I repeat: They are two distinct records. If you find a criticism on the former theory, then by all means stick it in, but don't try to generalise the criticism on the latter in order to refute all of Herodotus' mentions on Macedon.

• "This claim of kinship applies to the Macedonian royal house, which was extinguished shortly after Alexander's death. The Macedonian generals who thereafter made themselves kings over Syria, Egypt, and Macedonia itself were not members of that house; although Ptolemy I sometimes claimed to be an illegitimate son of Philip II"

What does that have to do in the section "origins"? Later Hellenistic rulers were not even Macedonian, they were simply Greeks from all over the world. Therefore I don't see the need to point out the obvious, i.e. that they did not inherit Macedon's royal line. Miskin 16:04, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mallacaos' additions

Ehmmm, sorry Mallacaos, but that source doesn't suffice to make it not WP:OR. We're not just dealing with reporting facts here, we're dealing with using facts to argue for an opinion. You've sourced the fact (Greeks as metics), but you haven't sourced the idea that it can serve as an argument about the Ancient Macedonians. Come back when you can say: "Author X has argued that, because even Greeks from other cities were treated as metics, we may conclude that the claim that Macedonians were "barbaroi" does not entail they were non-Greeks." - I very much doubt you will find such an idea in reliable printed sources by reputed historians or linguists. Hint: the difference between "citizen" and "metic" is different from that between "Hellene" and "barbarian". - No partisan websites please ([3]). Quote a book, or even better, a scholarly journal. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:46, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ethnicity

So the Argead dynasty and the kings of Macedon claimed Greek decent, yet we are still 'disputing' whether they were not a Greek peoples? Give me a break.

That's a question I've already asked in the past. It's contradictory isn't it? But that's life. Miskin 10:07, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

LOL: "Herodotus lies in his book". Quick, someone write to his publishers and send him a stern warning letter with Eurydice, plus relevant news footage from CNN. That will teach him, the rascal! Politis 13:39, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

It is a usual tactic of propagandists to accuse historians of lying... Poor Herodotus cannot defend himself... However, history has proven him to be right in most of his statements. and about the rest, future will show... Apropos, for centuries people and propagandists believed that Homerus was lying about the Trojan War, or that Linear B was not a Hellenic script... But, History always takes her revenge. and no matter if the Skopjans rename their airport, history can't be erased:). Hectorian 13:47, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Let them IMO. And then Thessaloniki Airport should be renamed to "International Airport Alexander the Great - Cyril and Methodios - Kemal Ataturk the butcher" or something like that ;-) //Dirak 14:29, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Greeks and Macedonians

E. Badian "STUDIES IN THE HISTORY OF ART VOL 10: MACEDONIA AND GREECE IN LATE CLASSICAL AND EARLY HELLENISTIC TIMES" by the National Gallery of Art, Washington. , Department of History, Harvard University http://www.gate.net/~mango/Badian.htm

Facts- two Greek rebellions challenge Macedonian foreign domination. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.247.99.26 (talk) 14:38, 25 January 2007 (UTC).

Factually, there are many errors in Badian's article above, so why post it?

Spirit of Truth

(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!