User talk:Apostle12
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[edit] Rosebud Denovo
You removed reference to Rosebud's killing because you suggest it had nothing to do with the Park, yet Park activists blamed Chancellor Tien for allowing the University to go ahead with construction plans (volleyball court, etc.). Rosebud was one of many outspoken critics of Tien. Her being in his house with a machete was directly related to people's park, far from having "nothing" to do with it.stan goldsmith 04:16, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
- Seems pretty tenuous to me. It's true that Rosebud linked herself with those who called themselves "Park activists." Yet she broke into Tien's house because she was deranged, not because her actions had a rational connection to any cause associated with People's Park. Her killing by an Oakland police officer had to do with the fact that she lunged at the officer with a machete; once again, her killing had nothing to do with People's Park.
- What I have noticed is that the Park seems to act as a magnet for quite a number of imbalanced individuals. They spend time in the Park, and their "cause celebre" seems to be proving that various authoritarian structures (the University, the campus police, the Berkeley police) are evil.
- Perhaps you can find a source that addresses this issue and work it into the article in some rational way. Otherwise it seems largely irrelevant. Apostle12 08:25, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Your points don't make sense. On the one hand you suggest that she "links herself" to the activists and on the other you say she had nothing to do with the park besides being crazy. As a person who knew her I can say that she was instrumental in organizing protests about the park and a major player in the protest movement surrounding the park in the early 90s.
Using your logic one can say: well the marches and riots in the 60's were just crazy people running amok for no reason, just because they were near People's Park or "linked themselves" with park activists doesn't mean anything.
What is the difference between linking yourself with a movement and being a part of it? And where do you get your information that she was "imbalanced" - this seems like a pretty heavy judgement call on your part. Same goes for the rest of the park activists, many of whom were and are still Berkeley students, many of whom are active in the Berkeley government and run businesses in the city, far from being crazed lunatics who think that the cops are satan. They have a purpose and your removal of that purpose diminishes them to something that you can assert your power over, i.e. nothing more than crazy people.
If you want to maintain that you are being neutral you are just kidding yourself. stan goldsmith 20:06, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
- Perhaps you would benefit from reading the link, "What Really Killed Rosebud?," which appears at the bottom of the page.
- I used the word "deranged" to refer to Rosebud, which I think is a mild term considering that: she had a long history of violent conflict with authority; she had been committed to mental institutions because of her threats and violent behavior; she had left Oregon because "there weren't enough protests" there, traveling to Berkeley specifically to seek out violent conflict regarding People's Park; and, shortly before her death, she and her boyfriend were arrested with explosives that they intended to use to blow up Chancellor Tien's house. Her shooting, after she lunged at an armed police officer with a machete, seems clearly to have been "suicide by cop." And she voiced exactly that intent, in a note penned before the event, where she declared her willingness "to lay down (her) life" to protest the building of some volleyball courts.
- Yes, "imbalanced" is judgmental word. I'm happy to stand by its use as appropriate in this context. Apostle12 08:16, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Robert Altman
You removed the Robert Altman (photographer) pictures from the Hippy article. Permission to use this copyrighted work in Wikipedia articles were granted by Robert Altman, on September 3, 2006. Do you have information which superceeds that? --Salix alba (talk) 00:33, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Hippie influence on the visual arts
Thanks, Apostle; I was beginning to think I was the only one in the discussion besides our aristo friend the Bus Stop! --Orange Mike 19:25, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
- I would like to help resolve this argument. I appreciate the brevity of your comments, and I've asked Bus stop to follow your example.. Please also remember not to bite the newbies. And, try not to engage in personal attacks. —Viriditas | Talk 00:25, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] People's Park article
Hey there -- got your note. See the discussion of People's Park to see some examples I pointed out. Maybe that will help, and we can start an ongoing dialog on how to bring this page up to par! Thanks
Guess I'm dense, but I do not understand why you consider parts of my ediing as biased: in my mind (probably the problem!!), many of the people involved in the "Bloody Thursday" incident were upset and confused. about why the police had fenced the park. People gathered in Sproul Plaza to find out what was going on, and to share their feelings of confusion. So I think of them as 'citizens' and not 'protestors' because they were peaceably exercising their Constitutional right to assemble. When Dan Siegel spoke he was not inciting people to protest -- he was saying that the citizens should go to the park.
As I understand 'loaded' words (I'm thinking of S.I. Hayakawa's Language in Thought and Action here), 'citizen' is more value-neutral than 'protestors,' a term that suggests a purpose not necessarily inherent in their actions. Also, I am puzzled by your comment that I 'insist' on injecting bias. In my mind, I was suggesting alternative, less loaded language.
- Pepkoka, I presume? Please use four Apostle12 21:57, 4 March 2007 (UTC) to sign your comments.
- You are correct that the students who gathered in Sproul Plaza were merely concerned students and other citizens. At some point, however--perhaps when the fire hydrant was opened and the first bottles and rocks were thrown--it became a protest. And it is legitimate to call those who chose to involve themselves "protestors."
- Haven't yet had time to read comments on talk page. Will do that soon.Apostle12 21:57, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Last two sentences of introductory paragraph in "Hippie" article.
Apostle12 -- In the "Hippie" article there is no source to back up the assertion that "Hippie opposition to The Establishment spread worldwide through..." That is a broad, sweeping statement. I don't think it should be made at all. I tried previously to change that statement to a lesser statement. I just wanted it to say something to the effect that the "culture," or the "philosophy," of the Hippies was expressed, or "spread," through the various means cited. But it has been changed back to "Hippie opposition to The Establishment spread worldwide through..." Again: I don't think such a grandiose claim should be made here. But if you are going to make that claim, it needs a source.
I have additional problems with the use of the term "visual art." I don't think it is the correct term to be used here. That phrase includes much more than what is implied here, or what is provided with a source here. A narrower term or phrase is called for, so as not to create the misleading impression that hippie culture had much of a bearing on "contemporary art," because it did not.
All that I am saying is in reference to the following two sentences, which I take objection to:
Hippie opposition to The Establishment spread worldwide through a fusion of early rock, folk, blues and psychedelic rock. To a lesser degree, hippie culture was expressed in literature, [11] the dramatic arts, [12] and many aspects of the visual arts, especially film, [13] posters advertising rock concerts, and LP album covers. [14] [15] Bus stop 19:28, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Meese Commission criticism
Please take it to the Talk page if you really need to debate this assertion. edgarde 05:05, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Nice work!
Good job on your latest edits to the hippie article concerning the music scene. You are really dealing with a brand new article, a subpage of psychedelic music. There's no immediate hurry, but I would start contemplating the creation of a new article (I can help out with the correct name if you want), and adding a summary paragraph or two to the hippie article with a link to the main topic. Again, nice work. —Viriditas | Talk 12:58, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Several issues
Hi. Yes, I think we need to source everything in the article (it's policy, see WP:ATT), and if we don't, someone else will request it; it's the only way the article will ever meet featured article status. Ideally, the lead section should already reflect sourced material in the body of the article. —Viriditas | Talk 10:26, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
- Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. I am not questioning the need to source material.
- The phrase, "though the hippie movement itself extended far beyong the U.S." seems to me to be just a summary of ALREADY-SOURCED material--quite a lot of it within the "Hippie" article itself.
- When a general statement merely summarizes already-sourced material (the existence of hippies in other parts of the world being well-documented), you have in the past defended the inclusion of such material (the Manson section, for example). Apostle12 07:25, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
- The Manson section is a summary of a subarticle. If the summary does not represent sourced content in the subarticle, there could be a potential problem. I recall adding or helping to source material in the past. If the lead material in question is already sourced in the body of the article, why hasn't a citation been offered? —Viriditas | Talk 08:05, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
- I suppose I could start. There is just so much....Apostle12 08:38, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Hippie
You have to be kidding? Please look at the talk page for why the hippie article is POV, and it's because it is US centred, as has been made clear. We are an international and not a US encycliopedia, yet the article still reads as if it were part of a US encyclopedia after the many changes I have made. SqueakBox 20:36, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
All the issues that have been raised on the talk page have been addressed as they came up. All sourced material regarding global hippiedom has been added. Please add more if you wish; it will be welcomed. Apostle12 22:11, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
But your aggressive comments on my talk page are not welcome. The issues are being raised on the talk page though unfortunately Viritidas is being so aggressive it makes it very hard for long time editors like Codex and myself to participate. i suggest you criticise his false allegations before starting to attack me, SqueakBox 03:38, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
- I have never attacked you. Apostle12 04:22, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
