Talk:Baltimore, Maryland

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Baltimore, Maryland was a good article candidate, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. Once the objections listed below are addressed, the article can be renominated. You may also seek a review of the decision if you feel there was a mistake. Date of review: October 11, 2006

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Contents 1 Sign and date your posts! 2 Area Misrepresentative Edit 3 Population up since 2004? 4 Government and Crime 5 Geography 6 Missing colleges/universities 7 Concentration of crime 8 City infobox format 9 Climate - Dispute 10 This article reads like an advertisement 11 Reaching 100,000 pop 12 Row houses 13 Poly vs City 14 "Crane City, U.S.A."? 15 '== Club Music ==' 16 Miss USA?! 17 Crime 18 Population in 2005? 19 Anne Tyler 20 Culture 21 GA failed 22 Survey on proposal to make U.S. city naming guidelines consistent with others countries 23 Clarify republican congressman? 24 NPOV 25 Off-loading from culture section 26 New grafs I added; edit away 27 Expensive??? 28 Skyline Picture 29 Can we go back to the other skyline picture? 30 Baltimore's Population 31 Baltimore revitalization investigation 32 BELIEVE, hon 33 Wasn't Philadelphia always the largest city until the 20th century? 34 19th Century Political History

[edit] Sign and date your posts!

People, people! Please sign and date your posts using four tildes(Davidbober 23:38, 26 August 2006 (UTC)).

[edit] Area Misrepresentative Edit

Who changed the figures from representing the Baltimore metropolitan area to the Baltimore-Washington consolidated metropolitan areas? This is an article about Baltimore; not about the Baltimore-Washington consolidated metropolitan area. The figures showing the Baltimore-Washington metropolitan area having a population of 7.6 million belong in the article about the “Baltimore-Washington Metropolitan Area,” not in an article about Baltimore. Someone please correct this data to show the Baltimore metropolitan area to have a population of approx. 2.5 million. Fairfax County and its population has absolutely no relevance in an article about Baltimore.

[edit] Population up since 2004?

As of 2005, the population was 641,943, up from 636,251 in 2004.

What is the source of this claim? I can't find it anywhere.

Here is a source.

That article doesn't say that the population increased to 641,943 in 2005. It says that a revised USCB estimate as of July 1, 2004 was 641,943, which is an increase over the original estimate of 636,251, which was disputed by the city. I don't think the USCB has released any 2005 estimates, yet. --Browncat 06:37, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Baltimore isn't even in the top 25 anymore - someone should edit the 200(7) date... being ranked 12th is a 2006 stat

As of 2005, Baltimore is #18 (see List of United States cities by population). I doubt it's dropped out of the top 25 so quickly (in 2005 #25 had 75,000 fewer people). --Jfruh (talk) 03:40, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Government and Crime

The latest (13th Edition) of the Crime City Rankings came out, and Baltimore is now 12th. Since this article mentions Baltimore being 2nd (in the 12th Edition) it should be updated. City Rankings - 13th Edition Andywebs 21:14, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

In the discussion on crime, the body is very political and talks in a very negative tone about the current mayor, who is running for governor. It is unnessisary.

Keep Rewrite to Neutral point of view instead. Davidbober 23:37, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Negative tone may be a difficulty for a political candidate, but it does not violate NPV provided it is reasonably documented. The question to address is "Is the information fairly factual and informative, or is it mere opinion ?" The hardest facts on this subject will be the ones released by the Mayor's office, which is hardly neutral.

Regarding the assertion that "Though the crime situation in Baltimore is considered one of the worst in the nation, city officials have pointed out that most violent crimes, particularly murders, are committed by people who know their victims and who are often associated with the illegal drug trade. [7]"

           how could this be so?  The City of Baltimore has a murder clearance rate of only about 33% as of the citation date.  It has no idea who committed the majority of murders.  This red-herring ought to be removed until the factual basis can be established.

[edit] Geography

This is somewhat trivial, but could someone please add something in the geography section about the shape of the city? How did it come to be a half-square? Is there a story similar to that of the formation of Washington, DC that might be interesting to note? -Laikalynx 16:40, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Missing colleges/universities

Why does your profile of Baltimore, MD not show the following Colleges and Universities located in Baltimore?

Loyola College, Coppin State College, The University of Baltimore, Baltimore City Community College, Towson University (nearby), University of Maryland Baltimore County, The University of Maryland Professional Schools of

 Social Work, Law, Dentistry, Medicine

The omission is clearly an oversight and does the city an injustice!

Jerry A. Stanley, MBA, CPA, MSF

Be bold & improve this article. --Menchi 06:38 14 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Towson University should be in the separate articles of Baltimore County, Maryland and Towson, Maryland, not in the article on the city. Similarly for UMBC. BRG

The Baltimore Blast are not defunct, as of January 2004. Also, the Baltimore Thunder (indoor lacrosse) are an active professional athletic team.

Sean Gallagher

Need a red dot map the city. Done

The Thunder have been defunct for years now actually.

[edit] Concentration of crime

"The worst area in terms of crime is the near west side." I'm not familiar with Baltimore but I am aware of that the East side is considered blighted. Can someone who knows the area improve the precision or accuracy of that line? lots of issues | leave me a message 06:56, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

West side is definitly the worst side. But until someone finds some crime data on the city and it's various areas, I think this should be left out of the article because it reeks of bias Dominic 17:38, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Both East and West Baltimore have blighted areas with extremely high incidences of criminal activities. However, generally, the west side is purported to have more of these areas. However, this doesn't seem particularly pertinent and evidence is sometimes largely anecdotal. Crime reports available at http://www.bosconet.org/pjohnson/blog/index.php/2006/07/12/visualizing-murder-ink/ list murders in a map form. There is a higher prevalence of murders occurring in the Western half. Particularly murder laden is the area from the North Avenue/ Coppin Heights neighborhoods to Pratt St and Wilkens Blvd, considered southwestern and verging on southern Baltimore. If someone determines this as being relevant to the article feel free to edit accordingly. However, as mentioned above, this does seem to evince a bias.

Secondly, the description of the DVD "Stop Snitchin" as to promote violence against any citizen of Baltimore is highly inaccurate. If one actually watches the DVD in its entirety (a dull and arduous task), there are no general threats to the citizenry of Baltimore, rather a call to fellow dealers to adhere to a street based code of ethics which honors not becoming an informant against those like yourself.

158.103.0.1 20:49, 21 August 2006 (UTC)Dee

[edit] City infobox format

I would like some input on the format of the city infobox. Many city pages are using a slightly new format of the infobox, one that includes the city skyline image inside of the infobox. The reasons for this are that mainly, it makes the infobox (and the page) look better, and more professional. The previous infobox format does not have city skyline included within the box itself, yet it is becoming very popular on city pages for a skyline image to appear at the top of the page. This causes the skyline image to be at the top right, with the infobox below it, in may cases with a different width for both the image as well as the infobox. I also think it looks a bit awkward to have the heading, Baltimore, Maryland appear at the top of the infobox, but not at the top of the page. Additionally, some pages that have more text in the opening paragraph statement, include text overflowing between the skyline image and the infobox, which I think looks poor (see Orlando, Florida for an example of this - though this also depends on the width of the monitor, which may be variable among users - still, it's bad form).

I propose the infobox pictured at the right, which includes the skyline at the top of the box, inside. This is currently being used on many pages, including Washington, D.C., Chicago, Illinois, Los Angeles, California, among others). In fact, the LA page had a discussion on their talk page that favored this infobox 3:1 over the old format.

I would like some more input on this format. I attempted to change it previously, yet Boothy443 seems to be engaging in an edit war over this with little opinion, other than that it looks ugly. Dr. Cash 03:31, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

I have no opinion about the format, but the data should be corrected to show the population of the Baltimore metropolitan area instead of the consolidated Baltimore-Washington metropolitan areas. Previously, this data was correct.

[edit] Climate - Dispute

OK, enough. I'm a mediator. This is the stupidest edit war I have seen in my entire time on Wikipedia. This is climate, it shouldn't be something that is arbitrary, but it's turning out to be. Both of you have decided you want to keep changing the averages based on your own information, and you've both brought up all these websites to prove your points. I think all three of us agree about having specific averages, and the addition of a chart was a good idea.

So, as an outsider, I have to say that after reading this article, let's consider the purpose. This article is likely going to be read by someone who is interested in Baltimore. Maybe they are going there for a convention or something, maybe they're going to school there, and maybe they are going to travel there for whatever reason. They are probably not going to spend all their time at the airport, they'll probably stay in the city at a hotel and eat, sleep, club, whatever in the city.

OK, so I understand the NWS might not keep track of humidity, precip, blah blah blah at the inner harbor station. Then we can put the precip, humidity and whatever into the article using the BWI info. Science tells us the simplest answer is often the right answer, and it seems to me that the simplest answer here is that the temperatures taken at the inner harbor more closely reflect the part of Baltimore that people are interested in seeing when they visit. You know, the city part. Not the airport part.

If the temperature in the city of Baltimore wasn't important to the NWS, then they wouldn't have a weather monitoring station there at all. However, I understand that not all of the climate data kept at the airport is kept at the Inner Harbor station, but some is, and it is more appropriate for this article because the city is what this is about.

However, I think we need to add to the article that the temperatures in the chart were taken at the inner harbor, and maybe include some kind of mention that temperatures are lower outside of the city and away from the water, whatever. I'm just trying to reach some kind of consensus here before this article is locked down and no one can edit it. We should provide as much information from the city itself, but when none is available, we can and should use information from the next best available source: the BWI airport.

This one may well earn a place in WP:LAME. Here's my thought for a compromise:

1.The inner harbor figures are used as the main temperatures.

2.We then add a brief piece after that saying something like "Due to the heat island effect, Baltimore's climate varies geographically, with (-put BWI figures here-) at the Baltimore airport"

I'm not sure about the exact wording, but does anyone think this could work out? Deltabeignet 04:38, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

I think it's a great idea, and yes I have been arguing for a long time here.68.33.19.105 18:00, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

I can accept this. Munch10]

As a nonparticipant but horrified/amused observer of this edit war (and as the one who added it to WP:LAME), I think this is a stellar suggestion. --Jfruh 15:54, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Two comments; -I've lived in Baltimore City and just outside of it. It reaches 100 degrees 1 or 2 times a year. If we are going to mention in a BALTIMORE article the KANSAS Is occasionaly over 100, then obviously we should mention that it occurs in Baltimore. The typical extremes, aside from records, should be mentioned.

-It says in the article that Baltimore rarely has temps below 10 or above 95. 10 degrees is much rarer then a 96-100 degree day. --The General 01:20, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

-In 21 years living in the city of Baltimore, it got above 95° at least once or twice every summer. Temperatures below 10° in the city are a once every 6-7 year occurrence. The AHS acknowledged this when they assigned Baltimore City as a part of USDA Zone 8, which has minimum winter extreme lows above 10° on average. Baltimore's is around 12°F.

-Baltimore dropped below 10 degrees in 2002, 2003, 2004, and 2005. These single digit temperatures are not as rare as you think. It's just that winter 2006 was very mild. Last time it was 100 was July 4, 2002. 68.33.19.47 04:52, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

-The following disputes your data--The General 21:12, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

-I Found some info. Go here: [1].

Under Product, click Preliminary Climatology Data, which is the past records for each day, grouyped in months.

Under Location, click on MD Science Center (this is the only place in the city of Baltimore where the NWS takes continuous records.)

Then under Timeframe click Archived Data. You can pick each month of each year going back to 2001, and then click "go", and it will show you three columns on your extreme left: DY (day), MAX (the days high temp), and MIN (the day's low temp).

So here is what the tables show for Baltimore City:

During the winter of 2001-2002, the lowest recorded temperature was 22°F, on Jan 1 & 2, 2002.

During the winter of 2002-2003, the lowest recorded temperature was 11°F, on Jan. 18th, 2003.

During the winter of 2003-2004, the lowest recorded temperature was 07°F, on Jan. 10th, 2004.

During the winter of 2004-2005, the lowest recorded temperature was 10°F, on Jan. 29th, 2005.

During the winter of 2005-2006, the lowest recorded temperature was 15°F, on Feb. 19th, 2006.

So yes, Baltimore had a freakishly warm winter in 2001-2002, and a colder-than-average one in 2003-2004. I did check, and yes, the last time it cracked the century mark in Baltimore was the 4th of July, 2002. But it also only got into the single digits ONCE in the past 5 years, and that was only a bit below 10°. If you AVERAGE these 5, the average winter minimum for the last 5 yrs in Baltimore City is 13°F. The unusually cold winters of the mid 1980s knock the average down into the 12° range, but this is why AHS and Arbor Day have given the CITY of Baltimore a Zone 8 rating.

And I think once every 5 years certainly qualifies as a RARE occurence.

--User:Strongbad1982 02:53, 12 May 2006 (CST)

The only reason your statistics are true is because the Science center is in the middle of a strong heat island. The station that NWS keeps all the data, including snowfall amounts, is BWI airport. Most US cities keep their true data at the airport stations. They don't just represent the climate of the airport, but also of all surrounding areas. So around Baltimore, maybe not in the center of the city, single digit temperatures occur every year or two. When going to the monthly data, have you ever thought of why it says "Baltimore", while the other station says "MD Science Center"? Because it is a better station which represents most of Baltimore's climate. 68.33.19.47 22:42, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

---

This has been re-hashed and re-hashed and re-hashed. The consensus of Wikipedia is that the article is on the CITY of Baltimore and not the Baltimore metro AREA, which is another article altogether. Therefore, the moderator has asked me to present climate data from a NWS location in the city proper when possible, and only use stats from another location when necessary. Everyone involed accepted this, so that is how the article will stay. In the CITY OF BALTIMORE, it has gotten below 10 once in the past 5 years. The fact still stands.

--User:Strongbad1982 10:04, 13 May 2006 (CST)

Any objection if I rewrite this section to be a straightforward description? As it stands, it seems to be a defense from some imaginary claim that Baltimore has an extreme climate. I would like to remove the comparisons to Kansas City -- uttely irrelevant. Let's just describe the facts, is that ok? kdogg36 00:18, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I took the liberty of locating a Köppen climate classification map, which does NOT say that Baltimore has a "temperate" or a "coastal" climate. A marine westcoast temperate climate is Cfb, and this map clearly shows Baltimore and the Chesapeake Bay area to be Humid Subtropical, or Cfa. Whoever keeps saying that Baltimore has a CfB climate, the facts point out otherwise.

Here is the Köppen climate map of the world:[2]

Here is another Koppen map of the world which is easier to see. It classifies Baltimore as Humid temperate. [3] Faz90 18:42, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

C climates as a group are called temperate/mesothermal climates, and Cfa is called a humid subtropical. "Temperate" is a broad term that includes all "C" climates (including the unrelated Mediterranian climate, Csa, Csb.) "Cf" climates are the "humid subtropical" group. The C denotes the temperature, and f denotes a "forested" climate (year round even precip) as opposed to an "s" (summer dry) or a "w" (winter dry) climate, and a is the first level of this (Cfb having cooler summer temps.) The Wikipedia article on the climate zones explains this petty well, and identifies Cfa as "humid subtropical" [4]. It's probably wise to keep the label in the article as "humid subtropical" and be specific than call it "temperate" and confuse readers (because Baltimore definetly doesn't have a Mediterranian Csa climate or a Marine West Coast Cfb climate!)

[edit] This article reads like an advertisement

The tone of this article makes it read like a travel brochure. Also, the section about the mayor does not seem objective either. --JetPackRocketBaby 05:49, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reaching 100,000 pop

First, I'm not sure this is that important, or belongs in such a prominent spot.

Second, I would dispute the statement outright. If one includes the adjacent Northern Liberties, Southwark and Spring Garden districts to Philadelphia's population, it clearly beats Baltimore to 100,000. These districts were adjacent to the original Phila platting, and were quickly "swallowed up" by the city proper.

I could find no equivalent places (Fells Point?) for Balt listed in the historic census figures to possibly boost Baltimore's pop figures, so based on what people probably thought of as "phila" back then, I would change it.

But going by official US Census, it is correct! (we Philadelphias just can't let Baltimore get a leg up!)Redneb 18:22, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Well we cant use your reasoning either. Northern Liberties, Southwark and Spring Garden, we not part of the city of Philadelphia untill after 1854, when all municipalites in Philadelphia County were merged into the City of Philadelphia, so prior to the 1860 census they would have all been listed seperatly. So any census figures prior to 1860 for Philadelphia would have only refered to the city as then, the area between the Delaware and Schukill and Vine and South Streets.

In census figures throught time, the pouplation of a city refers to the pouplation of the city proper, and not adjecent municipalites.

As for Fells Point, if you were to find any census info on the town, it would be simply amazing. As the town of Fells Point merged with Baltimore Town in 1773.

Anyway for three census Baltimore was the second largest "Urban Place", as stated by the Census Bureau, 1830, 1840, and 1850. And the nmubers based on those census figures would agree with the statement. Philadelphia does not reatke the 2nd position untill 1860 in which it more then doubles it pouplation from 1850, coinsiding with the 1854 considlation. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 04:07, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I realize the places listed above were not part of Philadelphia at that time, but my "reasoning" is still sound-including contiguous built up areas, what is now referred to as "urbanized areas". All I'm interested in is a good "apples to apples" comparison! 207.13.211.199 19:33, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

No your reasoning is still flawed and it would could neevr work for statistical or comparision puropese. Your comparing multiple jurisditcions to a single one, on the the basis, that the multiple are constitued a singal urban area. It would be like today Comparing the Boston Metro Area with just the City of Jacksonville, and then saying that Boston is a bigger city then Jacksonville, even though Jacksville City Proper has more people living in it then Boston City Proper (Boston, 589,141 (2000) / Jacksonville, 735,617 (2000)/ Boston Metro (MSA) 4,391,344 /Jacksonville Metro (MSA) 1,122,750). Also your tying to employ a comcept that was not first though of untill the 1870, and not employed by census untill 1930, see [5], also you could nevber get an accurate number or an estime based on the data. As in the case for Philadelphia their were other section within the couldty at the time that would have had similar "urban" characitersitics as Philadelphia did as well as had rural charactersitic that would using the idea of the urbn area could not be included in the idea of a metro area for Philadelphia, and while you could find these pouplation data it's inclusion would be subjective. As for Baltimore, you would find this more dificult, as the city of Baltimore at various times represented the majory of the extent of it's own urban, area that has not allways been the case, as sigicfnat urbanized areas lied outside the borders fo the city yet could be considered as an urban area of the greater Baltimore area, many of these areas have now since become parts of the city it's self due to the expansion of the cties boarders. But these areas would not have seperate pouplation data, for the fact that they were not incorperated areas and would have just been included as part of the Baltimore County, which up untill really the middle of Last century, maintained a sigificant rural charactersitics. SO for the most part the idea of getting a realistic "apples to apples" comparison, is for the most part impossible. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 06:10, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Row houses

It would make me happy if someone would write something about the prevalence of row houses in Baltimore under "Culture". As I understand it, a large part of the culture was shaped by the row house and the "stoop" and socializing while cleaning the front steps. Loodog 17:21, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Mencken's former house at 1524 Hollins Street is a rowhouse. Source About the H.L. Mencken House Davidbober 02:13, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Some mention of prevalance of formstone on row houses (and now it's removal) would need to be added too. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.251.163.194 (talk • contribs) .

Agree would be something worth mention, rather then sniping about the amout of snow. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 06:03, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

ISTR a Mencken quote (will need to source it) about row houses... something about how every Baltimorean living in a two-storey row house aspires to live in a THREE-storey row house. Davidbober 22:32, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Also something about painted screens. Or perhaps something about being the City of Neighbhorhoods - which is why john waters movies are all filmed in baltimore, in attempt to caricaturize each eighborhood's personality.

[edit] Poly vs City

I was wondering whether the recent changes from City to Poly were some rivalry/edit war heating up, or whether we've long had some incorrect info here, or whether we're just seeing a change from one claim to another based on someone else's nth-hand info. So for the record, it appears HLMencken did indeed go to Poly.[6] DMacks 02:33, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Speaking of which, there's been an amusing-to-watch slow-mo revert war over whether Poly or City is the "flagship" school of the Baltimore public school system. It's not as hilarious as the war over the city's climate, but it's good fun. How about we just list both of them? ---Jfruh (talk) 00:32, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Crane City, U.S.A."?

Is Baltimore really called "Crane City, U.S.A."? I've never heard anyone call it that.

Me neither, although if somebody could cite a source that might help. Davidbober 23:30, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] '== Club Music =='

Nobody has mention Baltimore's popular Club Music. It's an art native to baltimore, that should definitly be researched added in Culture.

Is club music native to Baltimore in particular? Davidbober 23:31, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

club music? No. Baltimore club music, most definately, and as of the summer of 2006, is considered slated to become the biggest thing in the youth music scene in New York, London, Amersterdam and Berlin. there should definately be something on this included in the article.

[edit] Miss USA?!

Would anybody object to the removal of the section on baltimore hosting the miss usa pageant in the years 2005 and 2006? This seems insignifigant to the extreme and its inclusion in this article is actually a tad bit embarrassing.

Keep While it could be considered embarassing by some city residents, it is factual. Taken to its logical conclusion, if we delete everything considered embarassing to cities (crime figures, etc.) then we'd be eliminating facts from Wikipedia. Davidbober 23:34, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

this may be factual, but is completely insignifigant. shall we list every convention that occurs in baltimore every year? hosting the miss USA pageant is not embarassing; its inclusion in this article is embarassing. it has no place in this article.

I agree that it's not all that important. I don't object to it being included, but it doesn't deserve a point heading of it's own. (Zms676 14:38, 6 September 2006 (UTC))

Baltimore also hosted the Miss USA pageant in 1969 at what was then called the Civic Center. 68.100.9.211 04:11, 17 January 2007 (UTC) UD101

[edit] Crime

I deleted the following:

"A recent newscast e-survey found that over 75% of respondents did not feel safe in a Baltimore which is not improving. [7]"

because e-surveys are not at all scientific, and this contributes to a biased presentation of crime in the city.

(Anonymous, 20:52, 31 August 2006 (UTC))

Agreed. Local TV news "internet polls" are not encyclopedic sources of information. If there is alternative reputable research to cite on crime statistics & public perception then this should be cited. Davidbober 01:09, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

OK, more changes (I deleted the e-survey as Anonymous). I think that I have resolved the verification issue, so I deleted the warning. I don't know if there's a policy for who usually does that, so pardon me if that was inappropriate.

Here's what I did:

• Changed first sentence of second paragraph from "While murders have been relatively static, other categories of crime in Baltimore have been declining." to what it is now. I thought it was strange that the first paragraph talks about a decline in murders, but the second paragraph starts off by saying that murders are static. I think the new sentence still serves the same purpose (shows that crime is declining, but still very high) without the internal conflict.

• Combined sentences and added citation in second paragraph, second sentence.

• Added a statement about the political motivations of some of the accusations of the books being cooked. I agree that its important to note the potential controversy, but I also think that people who don't bother to follow the links should be warned that many of these charges seem to be coming from O'Malley's political opponents. I linked a Washington Post article examining the political motivations.

• Added two ^{[citation needed]}s for facts that I couldn't verify.

• Consolidated the last two paragraphs into one coherent paragraph. I thought that the paragraphs, as written, seemed like a random string of facts. Now, hopefully, they tell more of a story about witness intimidation. The note about the conviction of the criminals is put in there partially to balance out the negative elements, and partially to seque into discussion of the dvd.

• Deleted the comment that said the city attorney stated that the city was "dominated by terrorists" because it was a gross mischaracterization of the quote in the cited article.

• Deleted a lot of extraneous information about Stop Snitchin' because it didn't seem necessary to an overview about crime. If people are interested about learning more about the video, they can follow the link.

(Zms676 15:42, 1 September 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Population in 2005?

There is an inconsistency wrt the population in 2005. In the infobox, I read:

Population
City (2005) 635,815

But in the text at the top of the article, it is written "As of 2005, the population was 641,943 [...]"

Moreover, in Section 6 (Demographics), it is written:

• 1950 - 949,708
• ...
• 2000 - 651,154
• 2005 - 635,815

while the text at the top reads "[...] but higher than the century-long low of 636,251 in 2000." The same number is found in Section 1 (History). But in Sect.1, the 1950 value is consistent with the table of Sect.6. However, no reference is given in Sect.1 and intro to the figures of 2000, 2004 and 2005. I found the number 636,251 in a webpage (Maryland Data Sort By Regional Council), but it is associated to the date 2004. According to this document, 636,251 is a "2004 ESTIMATE". This website says that 636,251 is the population in 2005. SkyscraperPage.com provides the number 636,251 as the current population of Baltimore. Several other websites use the number 636,251 as an indicator of current population, but it is sometimes written "estimated population in 2004". The conclusion of my research is: 636,251 is definitely not the population of 2000. Moreoer, the figures of Sect.1 and intro are based on estimations rather than sensus. Additionally, the population tends to decrease since sixties and it has not "bottommed out" in 2000.

In this article, the figures from the table of Sect.6 are consistently used in the text of Sect.6. These particular figures correspond to those found in the Top 50 Cities in the U.S. by Population and Rank, which reproduces figures from U.S. Census Bureau. In my opinion, these values are more reliable than those of Sect.1 and intro. --Earendel 13:53, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

The discrepency may be because the at some point in the first half of the 2000s the city got the census bureau to revise one of its population estimates (remember, the figures from years not ending in zero are estimates, not the "actual enumeration" of the decennial census). I think the 2004 population estimate was revised upwards in late 2005. Thus, there are probably two different figures for the city's 2004 pop. floating around out there, one of which was released in 2005. --Jfruh (talk) 15:20, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anne Tyler

still lives in baltimore

[edit] Culture

hon racist?! “Some Baltimoreans believe that "Hon" has racist origins..” this seem to me to be, at best, an example of original research, and at worst, an outlandish claim. If a verifiable citation cannot be provided, this should be removed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.248.8.190 (talk)

[edit] GA failed

1. Well written? Fail

2. Factually accurate? Fail

3. Broad in coverage? Fail

4. Neutral point of view? Pass

5. Article stability? Pass

6. Images? Fail

Additional comments :

• Fix the tag of these images Image:Balt. Battle Monument 1a.jpgFIXED, Image:Washington Monument, 1849, from Federal Hill 1a.jpgFIXED, Image:Balt. Fire 1904 - West from Pratt and Gay Streets 3a.jpgFIXED, Image:Balt. Fire 1904 - West from Pratt and Gay Streets 1906, 2 years later a.jpgFIXED. This image : Image:NationalBohemianCoaster.gif needs a fair use rationaleFIXED.
• The population is given too much emphasis in the Lead section : see As of 2005, the population was 641,943, down slightly from 643,304 in 2004, but higher than the century-long low of 636,251 in 2000. The Baltimore–Towson metropolitan area, as of 2004, was estimated to have a population of 2.6 million. and After New York City, Baltimore was the second city in the United States to reach a population of 100,000, (followed by New Orleans, Philadelphia, Boston). Baltimore was the second largest city in the nation until 1870, when it was surpassed by Philadelphia. Baltimore remained one of the 10 largest cities in the United States from 1790 until about 1970. The city and metropolitan area currently rank in the top 20 in terms of population. FIXED
• The previous point makes the lead not comply with WP:LEAD.FIXED
• There is no general reference which lets the reader with no background information and the reviewer with no material to cross- or double-check evidences. This cannot be acceptable for GA material as many points would then become original research as no source is cited for the material used.

  Just an example of that : The relatively shorter distance between Baltimore and the Caribbean colonies allowed swift transport and minimized the spoilage of flour.

  There are more examples.

  In Culture there are more examples.

• Inline citations are concentrated in the Crime subsection and do not represent the totality of the material present in the article, more are needed.
• Paragraph starting with In the early part of the 21st century, Baltimore is undergoing... changes the verb tense and goes into present which is somewhat clashing with the rest of the section.FIXED
• In Law and government could we have the reasons behind the fact that the city is considered to be a county or the time when it became one?
• In City Crime Rankings (12th Edition) ranks Baltimore second only to Detroit among the most dangerous American cities over 500,000 in population. is it possible to know out of how many towns (for not many are over 500k people)?Is this really necessary? Other good articles don't include this
• Culture section is too huge compared to the rest of the article (make a subarticle and keep only the best).FIXED (made it an article by itself and referencesd it)
• Expansion of Neighborhoods would be appreciated. Just situating the city is already a plus.FIXED
• Education shouldn't only be listing the schools/universities/colleges but giving facts about its quality or its standards or its history.
• Same as previous point for the Media, Museums and attractions, Sports teams sections.
• Baltimore in fiction should be prose and not bullet point (IMO, it should be removed as it isn't notable trivia).FIXED, moved to it's own section

In light of such a body of work to do, I cannot pass this article. Please feel free to contact me to have more insights, comments or to discuss certain aspects. Come back to GAC when the article is improved. Lincher 01:29, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Survey on proposal to make U.S. city naming guidelines consistent with others countries

There is a survey in progress at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (settlements) to determine if there is consensus on a proposed change to the U.S. city naming conventions to be consistent with other countries, in particular Canada.

This proposal would allow for this article to be located at Baltimroe instead of Baltimore, Maryland, bringing articles for American cities into line with articles for cities such as Paris and Toronto.--DaveOinSF 16:49, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

However the proposal would allow U.S. cities to be inconsistent with the vast majority of other U.S. cities and towns, which (with a few exceptions) all use the "city, state" convention. -Will Beback 23:40, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clarify republican congressman?

This is confusing. Why not give a date? All three are Democrats; a Republican has not represented a significant portion of Baltimore since Robert L. Ehrlich, Jr. stepped down from the 2nd Congressional District seat to run for governor — a position he won by defeating Kathleen Kennedy Townsend. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 131.107.0.73 (talk)

The whole thing was really more info than needed, especially now, four years after the fact. I trimmed this part down. --Jfruh (talk) 19:28, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

NPOV Issue: "One of Baltimore's greatest moments occurred..." Tagged "History" section. Apollosfire 19:24, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Off-loading from culture section

I’m glad to see the culture information redirected to its own article and paired down to a bare essential within the main article. Unfortunately, the culture section within the main article is now quite incorrect. “some point out that such uniqueness in dialect is found (at least in part) throughout Maryland and that, furthermore, the name of this dialect should reflect this” No, actually. The further away one gets from the city itself, this “dialect” dissipates. There is no such thing as a maryland accent. The accents on the eastern shore, washington suburbs and within the appalachians (geographically and population wise, more than half of the state) are not even related to the accents of the central part of the state (which itself does actually share some elements with the baltimorean accent), and the accent becomes exponentially more prevalent within the city and the working class inlaying suburbs populated by working class population shifts out of the city within the past fifty years. The accent itself is distinctively baltimorean, rather than maryland in general. The accent is not “(at least in part)” found throughout the state. It is found, in part, in areas within in 30 miles of the city proper, with the city itself being the focal point.

It is as though the author of the new culture section had a bone to pick with the notion of the previous wording, and the new writing betrays this. This is no more objective than the previous section, and arguably less correct.

Also, I am unsure as to why Little Italy would be granted a mention in this “paired down” section over all the other distinct districts within the city, other than to mention Nancy Pelosi; which itself doesn’t seem particularly relevant to baltimore’s overall culture to warrant a mention in this two paragraph section. Yes, this is big news this week (01/05/07), but will be quickly forgotten. Also, the mention of “The” Washington Monument, rather than “A” Washington Monument, or “Baltimore’s” Washington Monument could be quite confusing to people more familiar with another Washington Monument forty miles away.

A new culture section, roughly the same size as the present one, should be completely rewritten. 216.133.97.133 05:16, 6 January 2007 (UTC)adam

[edit] New grafs I added; edit away

I actually think a few neutral but interesting summary grafs on the city's culture would be useful on the main page--so I typed in a few myself. Edit away if you don't like them, of course. Based on some of the discussion here, I guess some folks may be uncomfortable with any discussion of the local dialect. I defer to the moderators.

Also, I tried not to make the text read like a tourist brochure. However, it does read pretty "positive." After that huge and rather disturbing (though accurate) section on crime, it seemed like we could use a calmer segue into the actual culture of the city. After all, people really do live pretty happily in Baltimore (including me for most of my life), and it's a pretty attractive town, with affordable housing prices, too...

FYI, I think the separate page on the city's culture is terrific, and the pictures are great! You get a feel for the city that text just can't provide. I didn't touch it, I'm just complimenting it.

I did add a graf in the History section, right after the War of 1812, talking about how the city really became important after the National Road and the B&O Railroad were built.

I also slipped in, right at the top, a little phrase indicating that Baltimore's metro area was not the third largest in the northeast, that it was outpaced by Boston and DC. It seemed the right thing to do after the statement that the "city" was the third largest after NYC and Philly.

This Baltimore page is getting better all the time, and I hope I have not hindered that. Wikipedia is cool.

Jlevy 06:55, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Expensive???

Generall speaking... Is Baltimore an expensive place to live?Debit Card 20:20, 18 January 2007 (UTC) This may be a very stupid question, but im British and planning on spending some time in America..So price is very important. Thanks for any help given. Debit Card 18/01/2007

[edit] Skyline Picture

Does anyone else think that the skyline picture is below-par? You can barely make out the buildings of downtown. Most other city articles on Wikipedia contain downtown skyline views. I have a few pictures I can contribute if there is enough support to change the picture. Irteagle102704 01:37, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I picked that one because I was trying to find ANY picture of Baltimore that is NOT taken from inside the Inner Harbor. The tallest buildings front the water, so all the skyline pictures taken from the south don't show many buildings at all, and Baltimore's skyline looks like a much smaller city. Pictures from behind show all the high rises that are blocked from the south, and you see how many more skyscrapers Baltimore actually has. If someone can find a better picture of Baltimore (preferrably taken from the north, east, NW or NE, that'd be great! I agree the pic is not very clear and could have been taken closer. strongbad1982 10:05, 19 January 2007 (MST)

I've had that problem when trying to find pictures for other reasons, The view from the east, looking west towards downtown, is a decent view, I just can't find an image from that angle that's free-use. Also, I believe that a few pictures taken farther out in the harbor, like near Fell's Point provide a better vantage point of the city. I'll see if I can find a free-use image :) Irteagle102704 18:16, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Somone should get a shot from the symphony center roof, It makes it look like an actual city gradually increasing in building size towards the center.

What is going on with the featured Baltimore photograph?! There was absolutely nothing wrong with the inner harbor shot. Whether or not you think the buildings looked big enough, or whether or not you think the inner harbor is reflective of the “real” baltimore, it is the most recognized view of the city. Thus, it should the featured photograph. “NOT” the back of cars on the highway, be it the JFX, or Northbound I-95, or any other ridiculous shot.

-and I have no idea how to "sign" my comments. If that was really important, wikipedia would not allow unsigned participation in the discussion pages. But if someone would like to go in and spend the time adding my IP address to this discussion, instead of working on making this a better article, have a blast with where your priorities are set. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.133.97.223 (talk • contribs) 05:38, 12 February 2007 (UTC).

I don't know about anyone else, but the picture that is up right now, from the side, is stunning. I love it! Beautiful profile, and it certainly shows off more buildings than the Inner Harbor shot, where the main problem is that all the tallest buildings are directly up against the water, and block all of the buildings behind them, making it look like Baltimore's skyline contains 6-7 large buildings. I vote to keep the current photo: very colorful, and a unique angle. (User:Strongbad1982 10:50, 11 February 2007 (MST))

Very much agreed, strongbad, this was the angle I was originally looking for, but I couldnt find a public domain image from this view. My only problem with the image is that its a little bright, but otherwise, this shot is amazing. Irteagle102704 07:39, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Can we go back to the other skyline picture?

I think this one is pretty unappealing. The other at least showed the harbor, if from a great height. This one is mostly expressway and rooftops... (I'll look around on the Web for a good shot with no copyright problems, but I thought the other one was OK.)

I myself, prefer the other picture from the expressway, It showed the skyline, much better than either of the other two, on neither of which you can see the skyline clearly. Most other city pages on Wikipedia have an image that was not taken from far away from the downtown center. Next time I go to Baltimore though, I will be taking many pics, for the mean time I'm changing it back. Irteagle102704 04:57, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I have a very good skyline picture to add.... The architecture in Baltimore is so beautiful there should be MANY skyline pictures. I can contribute a bunch !

I put up the one from Fayette Street. I took it myself (with the shot tower in the foreground). Now someone has put the one which I had under architecture from atop the Utz building on a cloudy day, which I took myself as well, and made it the main pic. This picture is clearly not as good as the one from Fayette St. I am going to make the Fayette Street shot the main pic again. And whoever called the "Nightlife" article a tourist brochure is an idiot because the nightlife is part of the city culture. Just as the restaurants are part of the city culture. It's not advertising that it is better than anything else it is just information as to where it exists.

Thanks for the good work on the images. I really do like the one from Fayette St. I'll try to take some good ones this summer from my boat, farther down the Patapsco River (what I consider the natural and historic entrance to the city). Just a note--it would be helpful if people signed their comments here. Thanks!--Apostlemep12 22:13, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Baltimore's Population

Baltimore is not the third most populated city on the East Coast, contrary to what this article states. Jacksonville, Florida has a total population of 782,623, while Baltimore's is 641,943. Baltimore is the fourth largest city on the Eastern seaboard after New York, Philadelphia and Jacksonville. I am correcting the error. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.8.100.171 (talk • contribs) 05:21, January 25, 2007 (UTC).

That's right, you correct it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.145.176.180 (talk • contribs) 23:09, February 6, 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Baltimore revitalization investigation

Hey everybody. I'm the student of Moscow State University (Department of foreign countries), Russia, and i'm on my graduation work at present. This sience work is dedicated to american cities revitalization and redevelopment. Also it is tightly connected with Baltimore. The main target is to learn the ways of revitalization in Baltimore, Oakland, Pittsburgh etc.

So, dear Baltimorers or someone who interests in it, could you please describe me the way of redevelopment in your city? The main point for me is to know all about measurement that were made. When exactly did it begin? What were the steps to revitalize the city? Was the downtown take down and rebuild? Were the citizens settled apart? I'll appreciate very much for any detailed information.

Any kind of information would be very valuable for me! Thank you. Simon Freydlin Freydlins 18:42, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

P.S. Feel free to write me on this theme: boardpizza@mail.ru  And please forgive me for my poor english.

[edit] BELIEVE, hon

I am not taking on another article at the time, but in a quick check I didn't see any reference to the entire "BELIEVE" campaign that is posted on all city vehicles and buildings (and followed by some people having personal bumper stickers with ", hon" appended). — RevRagnarok ^{Talk Contrib} 17:50, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

A short paragraph about this campaign is now appended to the article's Crime section. --Adavidb 03:20, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wasn't Philadelphia always the largest city until the 20th century?

I've always been taught that Philadelphia was the largest city until New York became bigger in the early 20th century or thereabouts and that Baltimore more or less followed the lead of Philadelphia in many areas. I think all the population statistics floating around are suspect because I've read many things pre and post Revolution where this is pretty much assumed. My google search for "1830 census" brought me to http://www2.census.gov/prod2/decennial/documents/1830a-01.pdf where this shows Philly to be larger than Balto but smaller than NY. But the main point of the link I show here is that it doesn't really jibe with the 1830 census link of this article (even considering the surrounding county). So I'm somewhat confused by all the population statistics thrown around in this article. Read pretty much anything written before the 20th century that references the population issue and Philly is always assumed to be largest city and the initial destination for most immigrants. There should probably be some blurb to point out the point I make here. --Blake 69.139.238.47 20:18, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

So, you think the numbers derived from actual census data are suspect because they don't jibe with what you believe? For actual census numbers in an easy-to-read form, see: Largest Cities in the United States by Population by Decade. Part of the issue is that Philadelphia wasn't consolidated into its current boundries until 1854; before that, the actual city of Philadelphia only consisted of modern-day Center City. Northern Liberties and Southwark, both parts of Philadelphia today, were separate cities then, and both were in the top ten list of cities for the first two censuses. --Jfruh (talk) 20:50, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 19th Century Political History

"Baltimore has been a Democratic stronghold for over 150 years, with Democrats dominating every level of government."

This simply is not true. Aside from the obvious Republican mayors we have had over time, during the 1850s the government was strongly dominated by the American or "Know-Nothing" party. The city was overrun and controlled by violent political neighborhood gangs which took complete "responsibility" for managing voting in their wards. It's hard to even call it voter fraud because nothing resembling non-fraud took place. Anyway... someone should help the history on this one. If no one else, I'll see what I can do. --Apostlemep12 13:55, 29 March 2007 (UTC)