Talk:Batman Returns

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Contents 1 Reaction 2 Nihilistic 3 Trivia 4 Trivia section 5 Gothic atmosphere 6 Removed from article 6.1 Burton's Arc 7 WHOA! Huge Plot summary. 8 Edits to lead characters' actors 9 A three-thousand six hundred word summary? 10 Mayor Hill 11 Production: original research & a suggestion 12 Opinions as references? No. 13 Marlon Wayans as Robin 14 Plot cleanup 15 YouTube links

[edit] Reaction

The McDonald's tie in was NOT entirely cancelled,as there were plastic drink cups,etc. manufactured for the film. These can be found on Ebay, and I remember them myself,having worked for the franchise during this period

Are you American? That can change things. The tie-in was cancelled in the US, I know this, but very late - after production of the toys, posters etc. had already begun. In Australia, the tie-in went ahead. This should probably be mentioned in the article. ~Switch ^t 10:24, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nihilistic

The line quoting the critic who claims Batman Returns is nihilistic is immediately countered with "(despite there being no nihilism in the movie)." Isn't that a POV? - guest.

Also, shouldn't the 'best Batman movie' line be quantified or proven?

[edit] Trivia

The Trivia section reads to me like it's been copy/pasted directly from IMDb's trivia page - can anyone clarify this, and if so, I'm assuming that this shouldn't happen? Check out the revisions of around 29th/30th December. Also, going through to TMC1982's talk page makes it clear that he has a history of posting copyrighted material... Satansrubberduck 02:39, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia section

Hi:

I reorganised the trivia section. The higgeldy-piggeldy collection of stuff has been collated into Writing the Film, Casting the Film, Making the Film and Trivia. One quibble I have, I put the two trivia elements about the very last shot of the film in the last section. Theoretically they could go in Writing or Making but it felt right to end the page with discussion about the last shot.

[edit] Gothic atmosphere

In the sentence in the first paragraph about Danny Elfman's score, I changed the link attached to the word 'gothic' from goth to gothic horror (redirects to gothic novel), which I think is a better link -- the movie had nothing to do with modern goth culture. ArglebargleIV 08:16, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed from article

[edit] Burton's Arc

After the completetion and release of the film, Tim Burton was interested in directing a third entry in the franchise, when during an early meeting with the studio executives about the possible third installment, Warners made it clear that they didn't want Burton making another film (due to the critical fallout, despite the film's strong financial success), Burton has since noted that Warner Bros. hadn't outright said "no" to his return, but that it was obvious they didn't want him to make another 'Batman' film.

Those Batman fans who support Burton thereafter analyzed the characterization of Batman that Burton had created, and came to the conclusion that he was crafting an arc for the character. In similar fashion to other stories, the first installment (BATMAN) introduces and establishes the character, the second installment (Batman Returns) sends the character down a dark path, and the third installment redeems the character. Fans feel that getting to have his revenge on the murderer of his parents (The Joker) made Batman a bit bloodthirsty, explaining his further rage and viciousness in Returns, when, toward the end of the film, after seeing himself reflected in Catwoman, he begins to realize how far gone he is, and hopes to move back with Selina's help. However, Selina's instability and disappearance keeps Bruce in purgatory, unable to fully redeem himself. His move back toward heroism is reflected in his refusal to kill Max Shreck near the end of the film, and his lack of attempts to kill the Penguin (Though it happens anyway).

Still other fans, following this logic, feel that, upon further inspection, Batman, when under this period of duress and instense revenge-fueled anger (During Returns), goes from being a hero in the first film, into an anti-hero in the second. Further, some fans consider him one of the villains, just the least-evil among the four (Batman, The Penguin, Catwoman and Max Shreck), this could be true, seeing as the city "belongs" to Batman at the beginning of the film, and is taken away by the Penguin, which creates a power struggle for the "king" of Gotham City, a throne which Batman seems to occupy with an iron fist, though in the name of vigilante justice.

Though the character arc was not concluded by Burton's hands, the sequel Batman Forever does resolve the arc presented by him, where Batman, now no longer vengeful, is still in an identity crisis and emotional duress, however, his salvation comes in the form of Dick Grayson, who Bruce is able to help direct on the road away from revenge, and, in the process, help himself back to the "light" as well.

Fascinating review, but sources? If we can find any this has got to go back into the article right away, it's that good. As it stands now, though, it's likely original research. CanadianCaesar The Republic Restored 12:06, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

The first paragraph, the discussion about WB and Burton not returning, is taken from the main documentary on the second disc for the recent DVD special edition of the film, though summarized from Burton's account of the factual meeting.

[edit] WHOA! Huge Plot summary.

SUMMARY people, not novel. ...._(Complain)^{(Let us to it pell-mell)} 01:23, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, it seemed pretty large before I rewrote it anyway. Lenin & McCarthy 08:02, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

As for "Dramatis Personae", I guess I've read a bit too much Wookiepedia lately.--Lenin & McCarthy 08:21, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

It being on national TV the other night probably gave it some bloat. BabuBhatt 08:24, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm in Britain. I just like the film. Lenin & McCarthy 08:34, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

I do too. BabuBhatt 08:42, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

It was here? I didn't see it. Lenin & McCarthy 08:43, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

At any rate, the summary needs to be condensed a LOT ...._(Complain)^{(Let us to it pell-mell)} 04:03, 3 July 2006 (UTC). It would be nice if you Bat-fans could get some references in there too, and expand the production section.

[edit] Edits to lead characters' actors

Removed the info on the actors from the text, as that sort of information belongs on the individual actor pages and seems rather silly in the description. Anyway, just a bit of grammatical and Common Sense(TM) editing from me this time.--Snowgrouse 15:44, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

By that logic, the info about the character should be on the characters page as well. ...._(Complain)^{(Let us to it pell-mell)} 00:40, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A three-thousand six hundred word summary?

What pompous undergraduate was at work here? Three thousand, six hundred words. That's probably more dialogue than there is in the fucking movie.

We know. But no one has tried to condense it yet. Lenin & McCarthy 06:49, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Saw the movie on TV this morning and decided to give the much needed rewrite a shot. I agree that the summary is way too long, but out of respect to the original author I'll try to keep some of his original text, just shorten most of the paragraphs and delete the extensive quotes that give away some of the best lines in the film. 2:50 PM, 15 August 2006

[edit] Mayor Hill

Someone wrote that the mayor in question is called "Hamilton Hill". I just Googled him, and it turns out that that is the name of the mayor in the animated series, but I couldn't find anything about that name for the film. I've also read the novelization, and the was no mention of him there either.--Lenin & McCarthy 11:41, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Production: original research & a suggestion

The early stuff in the Production section is largely false. It was never about money for Michael Keaton, and there's never been any evidence to suggest it. The A&E Biography special on him proves so. He rejected increasingly-lucrative deals from WB to play Batman in the third film and turned them down. He never, ever asked for more money, or even made terms requiring Burton to be around. He was on board Batman Forever even after Burton left the director's chair, though it wasn't long.

Also, the DVD featurette disproves Warners being nervous about Burton's script or Burton requiring any terms of his contract. Burton assistant Denise DiNovi admits on-camera that they "really wanted Michael Keaton" back, and that they had to make sure he wanted to come back. Does that sound like they demanded him in a contract? The DVD features also reveal that Warner Bros. let Burton had free reign over the film: they never had a problem with anything he did until the review for Batman Returns started rolling in.

Removed unless someone can somehow find evidence.

The Burton films recieve a lot of flack and falsifying due to petty fanboys who feel that it is their duty as Batman Begins fans to make up negative rumors when it comes to Burton's films. I see it all the time and I know some Begins fans are just that pathetic. I then suggest that the Burton Batman entries go under some kind of semi-protection. I'm tired of having to correct lies about Michael Keaton being a jerk or practically leaving all of the fighting to stuntmen, as it's almost never true.

[edit] Opinions as references? No.

Also, the references section all lead back to a website article that is one man's set of opinions. Removed. This is biased and not allowed.

[edit] Marlon Wayans as Robin

This has never been confirmed by any source in all the years I've searched for one. I've marked it as a rumor.

[edit] Plot cleanup

I've just stripped about 1,100 words from the plot summary, but it's still too damn long (1,400 words plus). I've also removed the repition of plot points that occurred with the character list. PacificBoy 19:04, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] YouTube links

This article is one of thousands on Wikipedia that have a link to YouTube in it. Based on the External links policy, most of these should probably be removed. I'm putting this message here, on this talk page, to request the regular editors take a look at the link and make sure it doesn't violate policy. In short: 1. 99% of the time YouTube should not be used as a source. 2. We must not link to material that violates someones copyright. If you are not sure if the link on this article should be removed or you would like to help spread this message contact us on this page. Thanks, ---J.S (t|c) 03:39, 10 November 2006 (UTC)