Talk:Berkeley, California

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Contents 1 Trivia Tag 2 Tom Bates 3 Cloyne Court Hotel 4 Etcheverry reactor 5 Transportation 6 Crime Rates 7 Churches 8 Claremont Hotel 9 Birthplace of Billie Joe Armstrong 10 Name 11 Climate 12 Geography 13 Extreme Politcal view-points 14 Population Question 15 Cody's 16 Image Berkeley seen from a plane 17 Berkeley Schools

[edit] Trivia Tag

The material in the trivia section cannot be integrated with the rest of the article in any way that would shorten the overall article. Nor without disrupting the flow of the other sections. Yes, the article is long, but then again, this is about Berkeley. Perhaps some other sections could be moved to separate articles, such as the lists of mayors, famous people, sister cities, etc. Tmangray 17:07, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tom Bates

In the "Mayors" section I removed the extra information about Tom Bates, but I don't know what political party (Democrats?) he belongs to. Could someone add this? Thx Skaakt 11:31, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

The mayoral race is technically non-partisan by law, although "coalitions" have been used to circumvent this. Since the early 70's, city races have typically been between "radical" and "liberal" Democrats, Republicans and conservatives having vanished. I'm pretty sure Tom Bates is a registered Democrat, but I believe so is his perennial opponent, Shirley Dean. Tmangray 18:46, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Bates is definitely a Democrat, as is his wife, former mayor and now state Assemblymember Loni Hancock. The chances of a Republican getting elected to any office in Berkeley is approximately the same as it is in Chicago. +ILike2BeAnonymous 18:57, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

From the list of past mayors, one can see a long string of Republicans up until Warren Widener. But it should be noted, these Republicans were of the "progressive" variety, what we would call Lincoln Republicans, close to the politics of what are today's "moderate" (conservative) Democrats. The handful of real rightwing Republicans in Berkeley left en masse in the 60s in "white flight" after Berkeley voluntarily integrated its public schools, in the process, helping shift Berkeley leftward. Tmangray 20:31, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cloyne Court Hotel

A recently submitted article had a few sentences about this building and a paragraph about the role of the housing unit at U Cal Berkeley. I merged the material into the University of California, Berkeley article. The folks there promptly bounced it back as not worthy of mention in that article, but indicated that the building itself might be notable. I don't believe the building rates an article of its own, so I'm merging the building-related information here. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 17:12, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Is it at 2400 or 2600 Ridge? This seems to indicate the latter. This has no bearing on its notability, of course. I'm not sure it is notable enough to require mention at all—it's an off campus co-op dorm based in an old hotel... the people who live there think it is important, but not too many others do. I'm fairly sure it has no impact on a city-wide scale. Anyway, if we are going to start adding historic buildings, the Claremont Hotel needs a mention; it's the only real notable building I can think of besides ones related to the university. -- Fastfission 03:30, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Etcheverry reactor

text that was there was blandified to: "(The University also once housed a small research reactor which would have been in noncompliance with the Nuclear Free Berkeley Act. This was replaced in the 1990s with a computer laboratory, though the University denies that this had anything to do with the Act)."

First of all Oakland next door is also NFZ, (according to a sign) FYI. Second, "the University denies that this had anything to do with the Act". They did? When? I think it's the other way around. They CLAIMED it's because of the Act, and what great (non-tax paying) lawabiding institution they are, whereas I believe the reason they were happy to get rid of it was that it freed up space for the computer building, which was much more of a growth area than nuclear engineering, and less of a protest draw. Likewise LBL research has been unclassified since the 1970s; NFZ includes "no designing weapons". Another opportunity to tout how benign LBL is. And the reference to the security fence is just to point out a certain mixture of mentalities jumbled together; add a certain feel to the place.

By the way, many Berkeley transients are actually homeful. All those visiting professors. The reasons that the homeless arrive (mild weather etc ) are same as for the homeful.

I welcome you're comments, for a few days before I make any changes. 64.160.47.166 07:17, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Everything I saw said that they claimed it wasn't because of the Nuclear Free Berkeley Act (NFBA). If you have some evidence to the contrary please cite it; I seem to recall this from when I did some research on the history of the Act awhile back. LBL was moved to unclassified research long before the NFBA, of course, but has done "support work" over the years for the weapons labs despite this, including building parts of the DARHT at Los Alamos to simulate the conditions of nuclear testing. The University of California -- originally in University Hall, relocated in the 1990s to a newer, nicer building in Oakland, another NFZ -- maintains management over the activities of the two classified weapons labs, LLNL and LANL, which continue to have weapons design and maintenance programs.

If you have a source for me to check where UCB claims they got rid of the reactor because of the NFBA, I'd be happy to track it down (non-internet sources are fine) and check it for myself.

I've never seen the University do anything in respect to the NFBA with the exception of alerting the City Manager when they would be transporting radioactive concrete through the city (when they dismantled the Bevatron). There is considerable legal ambiguity as to whether or not a municipal statute of that sort would trump a state university contracted with the federal government, and to my knowledge none of the punishments outlined in the NFBA (fines, prison) have ever been applied to the University even when in flagrant defiance. If you have evidence to the contrary, I'd love to see it, but from my own research I have a very different impression. But I'm willing to say I could be just mixed up, it has been a few years. --Fastfission 22:11, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Quite interesting. I think we are agreeing that the REAL reason they got rid of Etch. reactor was NOT NFBA; we are only discussing what they SAID about it. I was only saying that they claimed it was because of the act, but that they WERE LYING. They may have said more than one thing. My recollection was that Chancelor Heyman, and this is from the Daily Cal, so it may be totally unreliable, said that the university would bow to the community's wishes, blah blah... Somewhere else it's very possible they said it was NOT because of NFBA, so as to maintain publically their claims of freedom from such kind of annoying laws from lower level entities like the city of Berkeley and its electorate. Don't want the wrong kind of precident, (as described in the LBL article on DARHT above.) So I suppose it is very likely that somewhere along the line they also said that.

If it could be verified that Heyman said that, then the factually correct wording in the article would be "the University both claimed and denied it had anything to do with NFBA, depending on whom they were speaking to and what spin was appropriate." (What are the changes THAT statement would be accused of POV?)

As far as whether NFBA would apply in content, if it applied jurisdictionally, if DARHT is unclassified, then NFBA seems to not apply, and also no contradiction with stated policy at LBL of no classified research" (which I don't see stated anywhere; just in my memory?) Another interesting sidelight is it probably is the case that the Oakland NFZ law doesn't say anyone can't the _paymaster_ of nuke designers. So everything's legal and in conformance with the letter of the law. Which is the only thing that matters. 67.118.116.145 03:52, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC) (FastFission, I've enjoyed talking with you here and elsewhere.)

I have worked on political issues with the University of California for thirty years. I cannot recall the University ***ever** acknowledging local government control over their ability to do what they want. I can't remember the specifics on the closing of the Etcheverry reactor, but I doubt they would set a precedent and say they did it to be in compliance with NFBA.

If anyone wants to add it, the reactor was a Triga Mark III (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRIGA) reactor. Lee 04:00, 5 January 2007 (UTC)amosslee

I added link to the NFB Act, and to the Triga reactor. I also clarified the act, including additional portions not included before. Lee 04:24, 5 January 2007 (UTC)Amosslee

[edit] Transportation

Fastfission, why are you repeatedly obliterating information from the transportation section of the article on Berkeley, California? You seem to be pushing a pro-automobile POV agenda. --Eric Forste 21:42, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I'm definitely not pushing a pro-automobile POV (my personal opinion is more of a "The City of Berkeley makes it impossible to use cars within its limits yet doesn't provide adequate or reliable alternatives" take on things), but I don't see anything wrong with softening claims to the statistics which aren't backed up. Do you have evidence to suggest that Berkeley's high level of bicycle and pedestrian fatalies is nothing but a statistical anomaly? Do you have scientific reasons for thinking that a better metric is fatalies per mile (why not fatalies per bicyclist? divided by automobile usage? etc. etc.)? All I did was change the "softening" bit to something which was a little more accurate so far as I understand it (that it might be an anomaly, or it might not) both from the few things I've read about it and my own experience as both a pedestrian and a driver in Berkeley (in my opinion, it is lousy to be either there, but I'm trying to make a NPOV article). Anyway, I hope you'll see that 1. my own POV (which I'm trying to keep out of the article as much as possible) is NOT pro-automobile (it is pro-reliable public transportation), and 2. I'm trying to keep the article from over-stating how "wonderful" the pedestrian/bike situation is in Berkeley, because my own experience doesn't back it up, and more importantly the statistics don't back it up. All I'm trying to do is come up with something which is accurate and NPOV; if you think wording things differently would help that then I'm all ears. --Fastfission 21:53, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

OK, first you deleted "Berkeley has one of the highest rates of Bicycle and pedestrian commuting in the nation, and the lowest risk of injury for those cyclists and pedestrians.", and then when I added "This is to be expected since Berkeleyans spend a greater proportion of time traveling on foot and bicycle than those in other towns; a ranking by injuries per mile traveled would be more revealing of risk." to your replacement text, you essentially effaced that as well. --Eric Forste 04:20, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

First, I didn't "delete" that line. I changed the "lowest risk" part because it is inaccurate and cited my source; the statistics say exactly the opposite. Second, I didn't delete the second line, I simply changed it to something more honest: that the statistics might be an anomaly, but that isn't known for sure. Which I believe is true. Do you have a degree in something which would give you any real knowledge over what statistics would be useful? I don't. And I'm inclined to keep out things which say, "these numbers aren't revealing, because of X and Y" if I'm fairly sure that X and Y were just made up by the person writing them. I don't think injuries per mile is necessarily more revealing of the risk than would be injuries per cyclist or injuries per cyclist divided by the number of automobiles, etc. (and I have to admit I'm fairly suspicious of risk assessment as a field, anyway). Anyway, my point is: I didn't obliterate anything, I first removed a completely erroneous statement, and then I made more NPOV and accurate a statement which was trying to negate the cited statistics. If you have a good reason (i.e. a cited study) to think that it should be worded otherwise, I'm all ears! --Fastfission 04:32, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I took out the "safety in numbers" reference because the link is dead and I can't find a single outside reference to this theory. I clarified the "safest city" fact based on this website. I also fixed the freeway info. (Why do people always forget about I-580?) Lagringa 12:18, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Crime Rates

"crime rates per capita are often among the top in the state." can you provide a reference? Surely, in dollar amounts, the center of crime is SacramentoGangofOne 06:37, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I took this out for two reasons. First, I can't find anything to back it up. Property crimes are quite high, and violent crimes are relatively low. Second, it's brought up in the context of a mention of the homeless population (which is itself problematic). It states that the homeless population is the cause of the high crime rate, and I'm certain there are no facts to back up this assertion. Similarly, there is no evidence that the crime is caused by Oakland residents. (The hot spots for crime are south of campus and downtown, not near the Oakland border.) Lagringa 10:28, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Churches

Hmm, Lubbock,_Texas also claims to be the city in the US with the most churches per-capita. Seems like wikipedia shouldn't have two articles that conflict like that. Mk2337 20:45, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Claremont Hotel

The Claremont Resort is actually in Oakland, CA

It's apparently located on the Oakland/Berkeley border, but their mailing address is on Tunnel Road in Berkeley. Catamorphism 04:39, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

The Claremont Hotel is in Oakland, despite the fact they put "Berkeley" on their mailing address. As any detailed map shows, everything directly north and east of the intersection of Claremont Avenue and Tunnel Road is Oakland, up to the Contra Costa County line. A tiny portion of the property is located within the Berkeley city limits. Lagringa 10:28, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

The hotel building is in Oakland. The southwest corner of the hotel grounds is in Berkeley, including the Berkeley Tennis Club and part of the parking lot and grounds. The address is 44 Tunnel Road, Berkeley CA. As for the area east of Claremont and Tunnel Road, there is actually a salient of Berkeley which extends into this area across Tunnel Road, an oddity, but there it is. Refer to the City of Berkeley's zoning map. Tmangray 22:31, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Birthplace of Billie Joe Armstrong

Though various web sites say that he was born in Oakland, Rodeo, or Berkeley, the most credible source I could find -- an article in Rolling Stone -- says he was born in Oakland. The article on Billie Joe Armstrong also says he was born in Oakland. So for consistency, I'm removing him from the list of people from Berkeley since he wasn't born there and I don't know of any source that says he has actually lived there (as opposed to living in Oakland, which borders Berkeley). If you have a credible source that says he lived in Berkeley, feel free to add him back and cite that source. Catamorphism 07:49, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

On Billie Joe Armstrong's Myspace page (which likely is authored by him or his publicist) he writes "my hometown is Berkeley C.A. and Rodeo C.A." Here's the passage:

About me: Billie Joe Armstrong is my name I live in Oakland C.A. with my wife of 11 years,Adrienne Nesser Armstrong, together we have two kids, Joseph and Jakob. My hometown is Berkeley C.A. and Rodeo C.A. where I was born . Mike and I met in the 5th grade, we've been friends eversince. When I was 14 I think, Mike and I formed A band called "SWEET CHILDREN"(yeah I know. shity name but it was cool back then.) We abandoned the name later,when we moved to Lookout Records. Green Day was the new name, no one knew why we called ourselves that.(it meant teens lacking and spending days smoking weed) Later in the past we kick ass and moved to Reprise Records, where we reside with now.We wern't a band for a couple of months since our old drummer quit. We were later introduced to Tre Cool , (Gilman street's little drummer boy) From then on Tre became Green Day's official drummer . School was not my thing back then I dropped out highschool. My hopes were up. Music was and is my thing! wishing my dream would be something great! my dream was and IS.... GREEN DAY Oh and i cant answer all of the messages that you guys send me..and i cant all comment back or write back. so just dont ask

--Zippy 10:53, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

I can't believe you consider MySpace a reliable source. There is no reason to think Billie Joe Armstrong had anything to do with writing that. Reliable sources indicate that he was born in Oakland and raised in Rodeo. There is no evidence he ever lived or attended school in Berkeley. His connection to Berkeley is mostly through playing at Gilman Street. Lagringa 12:50, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Also, I can't find any evidence that Tre Cool ever lived in Berkeley. He was born in Germany and grew up in Willits. It's silly to include a list of every famous person who ever hung out in Berkeley! Should we limit this list to people who are actually from there, like on other city pages? Lagringa 13:07, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name

If the city is named for George Berkeley, how did it come to be pronounced "Burkley" instead of "Barkley"? Fishhead64 19:56, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

That is the American pronunciation. It is surmised that it was influenced by the Irish pronunciation. Lagringa 12:32, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Climate

Tmangray, why did you change the climate information? It is simply untrue that spring and fall are the warmest seasons. The fact that summer is the warmest season is really easy to confirm. Lagringa 10:55, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

In actuality, mid-summer is bracketed by warmer weather in Berkeley and most coastal locations affected by fog. The warmest weather on average AND by extremes in Berkeley occurs in September, which technically is partly in summer and partly in fall, but is usually thought of as a fall month generally. Hot dry winds also occur in late May and have also caused wildfires in drought years. They are the exact same phenomenom as that which occur in the fall, caused by the proximity of the storm track to the north. It would be misleading to tell people who haven't lived around here for a while that summer is warm in Berkeley. People who have lived here a long time know quite well about the sometimes long sieges of cool, cloudy-foggy weather that occur from June through August. In SF, they call it the "June Gloom". It's a pretty rare 4th of July that isn't socked in with fog and cold ocean winds. And most longtime Berkeleyans know well about those summertime Tilden Park picnics which end midafternoon with cold clammy breezes.Tmangray 01:19, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Geography

The coordinates under the map on the right don't match Berkeley but the ones given in the geography section are better. I suggest changing the coordinates given with the map to match the ones in the article. (For the campanile on UC Campus - 37 degrees 52'19 N, 122 degrees 15'28 W.) Dafoster 03:46, 16 June 2006 (UTC) This hasn't been changed yet. If you go to Google Earth you will find that the coordinates given (37°58′18″N, 122°16′29″W) will put you several miles away out in the unpopulated hills of a different county (Contra Costa). Coordinates should match the ones in the body of the article - 37°52′18″N, 122°16′29″W (37.871775, -122.274603)GR1.

• I'm guessing there is some sort of standard of locating a city: The geographic center? City Hall? Does anyone know what different geographic organizations use as the location of a city?Lee 01:30, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Extreme Politcal view-points

The extreme opinions of residences from that area have even created whole websites to document there protests such as http://www.zombietime.com/ This should be included somehow. The Isiah 04:09, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Population Question

Just a question on the population figures, does the census data include the students at UC Berkeley, or are the only UC Berkeley students included those who have filed for valid residency? Joshlmay 07:26, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

The census does not use University in-state residency applications as a data source. The residency qualification is all about how much you can charge students, which isn't the Feds' concern. Justforasecond 14:36, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Okay so that would mean the approximate population of Berkeley would be around the listed 102k plus the ~33k students at the UC? Thanks Joshlmay 20:18, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cody's

"In 2006 the city's leading independent book store, Cody's, closed. Conditions on Telegraph Avenue, where Cody's and other independent bookstores once thrived, have deteriorated." Cody's didn't close, only the store on Telegraph closed. The store on 4th St. (west Berkeley) is thriving. "Conditions on Tel.Ave"; what conditions? That's little vague. I don't think condition of people has changed in 20 years, although others complain of people (homeless punks and philosophers or whatever); that hasn't changed either. Only one other bookstore closure (that I recall), was Shamballa. They blamed it on the internet sales and chain stores, (Barnes and Noble). Maybe people don't read as much (insert wisecrack about the President HERE) --GangofOne 06:59, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image Berkeley seen from a plane

The image is located in the Geology section.

The image is horrible, you can't even see anything. I think it should be deleted. REMed out for now.Valoem ^talk 08:13, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Berkeley Schools

The listing of Berkeley High School as Berkeley's only high school is incorrect. Berkeley has had an "alternative high school" at ML King and Derby Street for several decades. In the past five years (or so), it has gone through a name change to "Berkeley Alternative High School" and now "B-Tech" (can't remember what it stands for). Members of the staff and students do not appreciate it when BHS is called Berkeley's "only" high school. The campus historically was the "continuation school" (for truants), but no longer fills that role (at least explicitly), and has worked hard to get rid of the stigma of being the "school for bad kids." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Amosslee (talk • contribs) 05:06, 8 January 2007 (UTC).