Talk:Black July

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Contents 1 Citation requests 2 Permission for photographs 3 Recent edits Nov 06 3.1 Political prisoners 3.2 Citations for Blue linked articles 3.3 Alleged libelous statements about JRJ 3.4 Other edits 4 Removal of citations and no citations [edit] Citation requests Citation for allegations of Rape Citation for allegations of Buddhist monks leading school students from Ananda College into the riots 18:56, 3 August 2006 (UTC) Citation for JR Wanting to teach Tamils a lesson23:15, 10 November 2006 (UTC) [edit] Permission for photographs To get permission from Tamil guardian, Sangam or anyone who the rights for the pogrom photographs so that we can include it in the article 18:56, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Archives 1, 2, 3

[edit] Recent edits Nov 06

[edit] Political prisoners

Let's discuss one at a time, term political prisoners. It should stay because if you kill political prisoners then you killed political prisoners. It is a fact, no amount of sugar coating it will make it look like you killed criminals. See quote July 83 saw the massacre of 53 political prisoners at Welikada Prison, who were brutally done to death in two days of violence on 25 July and 27 July, 1983. Kuttimani appointed as Member of Parliament, while in prison, was amongst the 53 who met with gruesome death inside the prison. source. The source is an editorial from a state oned daily. No if's or buts about it.

How can you state that the 53 people killed were "political" prisoners. Please cite that fact, or else leave it as the more neutral "prisoners". I am changing it back to "prisoners".

Please see Welikada prison massacre through the blue linked articls, it is already cited, and I have gprovided again in the talk page the same citation. Thanks RaveenS 20:05, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citations for Blue linked articles

In Wikipedia usually citations are not required if the sentence links it to a blue linked article as long as the linked article is fully referenced. If it links to an article that is not fully referenced then it is reasonable to ask for citations or remove that sentence. Most citations requested are linked to other articles. So I ask the editor to the do the hard job of going through those articles first to ascertain whether those articles written according to WP:Policies. For example the request for 1958 riots being the start of violent confrontation comes from the 1958 riots article itself. That article is also fully referenced from a reputable source.

Please do not remove my tags where citation is needed. Rather than removing tags, it would be helpfull if you can cite the claims made.

Before we make a mess out of this edit, pick section by section and first find the citations, because most what you are asking for citation are already cited. Then if not available ask for citation. Word by word every section here is cited directly or through blue linked articles. Maybe we have a communication problem here. What we have done over a period here is that either fact is cited directly or through blue linked articles. RaveenS

Also you seem to raise questions about a blue linked article Burning of Jaffna library. Again it is a fully referenced article that has information from neutral sources including a dead president Premadasa saying the government did it. So if you have a problem with that better you raise it over there achive consensus and bring that version here. ThanksRaveenS 21:02, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

"Library was burnt by government agents", To my knowledge although there was a inquiry, no court of law has found GD, or CM guilty of burning the library. So can we addd the term "allegedly burnt down by goverment agents" as it would seem more apprpriate. IIRC there was a inquiry by Chandrika or a SLFP goverment regarding the library (mainly to throw mud at the UNP), some commision or another, but I am not aware of its findings, and I am unable to find a reference to it at the moment. Perhaps you might be able to find this source and use it to cite the sentence.

Please read the following citation from the blue linked article Jaffna Library. The sentence in question "Library was burnt by government agents", is based on number of neutral and credible citations like this. I can add 2 more citations which say the same. RaveenS 20:35, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alleged libelous statements about JRJ

If in the biography of Hitler one says he was responsible for the death of few million Jews it is not libelous as long as it is referenced. The sentence removed about JRJ is fully referenced. If the editor has any credible information that shows that JRJ was not involved in the pogrom then he can always add to refute the point being made. A Wikipedia article can in it have number of points some of which contradict the main point being made. All what we are doing here is to be a reference point for readers of all known facts about a subject including contradicting information. RaveenS 13:47, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Regarding JRJ, I have indeed gone over the link [1], but I fail to see the text which says that "JRJ wanted to teach tamils a lesson". Please cite that very important bit of info.Kerr avon 07:18, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

OK then see the edit now per citation.RaveenS

First of all I must indeed acknowledge and praise your efforts to achieve a compromise. THe JRJ rewording is acceptable now with regard to JRJ's POV. Few questions,

regarding Cyril mathew and GD, there is a sentence saying "Many government ministers such as Cyril Mathew and Gamini Dissanayake of the government headed by president Junius Richard Jayawardene were involved in instigating the violence". I think we should add the word "were alleged to have been involved" be more appropriate as this is a encyclopaedia and should be NPOV, as no court of law(either sri lankan or international) has found them guilty, the sources cited, state that they were involved, but if they have not been convicted, it is not fitting in a encyclopaedia to say that they were involved as there is nothing to prove 100% that they were involved, ie conviction by a court of law.

OK then can we say according to UTHR report or some other neutral and credible source that CM and GD were involved ?RaveenS 20:35, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Other edits

"saving there lives" is not acceptable for a encyclopaedia it is biased and NPOV, "granting them asylum" is.

OK agreedRaveenS

My friend, you have been editing the wiki for some time and appear to be a responsible editor, I hope you agree with me that the article should contain cited verifiable information from neutral reliable sources. I dont care if you state that Prabhakaran is the reincarnation of the sun god himself if you can find a reliable source to substantiate that statement. Otherwise potentially offensive, subjective and libellous statements are not allowed. My edits were neutral and NPOV, so i fail to see why you are reverting them.Kerr avon 07:15, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Please leave discussions to user pages, here we will stick to the subject matter. Read Soapbox. ThanksRaveenS 20:05, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Lastly Black July is a fact and I am not denying it. But we must be careful at making claims especially against prominent figures without adequate citation. I hope we can come to a compromise.Kerr avon 07:29, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Agreed as long as you follow what the tag says here, that this is a controversial subject and discuss changes to it in the talk page and achieve consensus before making changes. Also follw the talk page convention so that it becomes easy to categorize the changes requested, section mentioned and consensus achived. Thanks RaveenS 20:05, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

"Thousands" or tamil youth joined LTTE etc. When you add the term "thousands" a citation or a probable figure is required(again shouldnt be hard to find regarding the prominence of theissue), as it can be 2000, 50,000 etc . If it was "Many" tamil youths joined etc, then a citation would not probably be required.I am leaving the article unedited in the spirit of discussion and compromise, pending the sorting out of the above issues.Kerr avon 02:37, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Lets' say many agreed RaveenS

[edit] Removal of citations and no citations

Please discuss before removing cited material 14:53, 29 March 2007 (UTC)